Environment Committee on Aug. 26th, 2024

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

Unfortunately, when the political process fails, despite first nations acting in good faith, they are often forced to take their case to court as a last resort.

I'll digress. The Supreme Court handed down a decision last February in response to a challenge by the Government of Quebec, which claimed that the federal government was intervening in its jurisdiction in relation to federal Bill C–92, which affects our children, youth and families.

In that case, the Supreme Court ruled in our favour. That's now part of the history of the relationship between governments and first nations over the past 50 years, and probably longer than that.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

When an emergency order is issued, that's because there's really an emergency. I think that's what the federal government is seeing. It tried to talk to and work with the Province of Quebec to come up with a plan.

In your opinion, are we at this point because of a lack of leadership on the provincial side?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Give a short answer, please, Chief Picard.

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

That is very clearly the case.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

That's pretty clear, thank you.

Mr. Simard, you now have the floor.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Mr. Picard, I'd like to pick up on what you said earlier about Kruger closing up shop. A friend told me that she had to move because of that.

I could go on and on about plant closures. For example, the Consol plant in the small municipality of La Baie, in Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean. That closure became a case study at the Université du Québec à Chicoutimi, where they began to study the consequences of that type of closure. The consequence is moribund communities, which is pretty serious.

I don't doubt that the impact on the Haute‑Côte‑Nord could be catastrophic, but I don't want to focus only on that. I would have liked to ask Mr. Bédard a question, but perhaps he can send us his comments in writing.

Earlier, the Boisaco people told us in their testimony that, without forest management and with the combined effects of forest fires and spruce budworm, the ecosystem could become less suited to supporting boreal caribou.

I would like your comments on that, Mr. Bédard. Would it be possible to send us an answer in writing?

[Alain Bédard]

Yes, I can send you an answer in writing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Great.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you.

Chief Picard, you stressed that your role is to build consensus within your community. I'll be frank with you. I don't want to be pushy, but I'd like to know if steps have been taken to gather input from people who are likely to lose their jobs in connection with caribou protection.

I know that some indigenous businesses will also be affected. Simply put, the forestry sector is a chain. As soon as you break a link in the chain, there are consequences. For example, Boisaco will no longer be able to produce the wood chips that other types of companies use. This cascade of consequences can affect several companies, including, inevitably, indigenous businesses.

Do you have any information about that for us?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Please keep your answer brief, Chief Picard.

Mr. Boulerice has questions for you, too, and you can answer Mr. Simard's question during Mr. Boulerice's time, if Mr. Simard is okay with that.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

My questions are more relevant than Mr. Boulerice's, but that's okay with me.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I won't comment on that, Mr. Simard.

Mr. Picard, please answer briefly. As I said, you'll have other opportunities to expand on your answer.

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

I could reiterate examples that show how communities are successfully managing that delicate balance between conservation, protection and the economy.

I'll be in one of our communities later this week for a major announcement about forestry.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you, Mr. Picard.

Mr. Boulerice, you have the floor.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I just want to take a second to object to Mr. Simard's opinion about my remarks.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I'm truly sorry.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

For families, having a job and a salary is about dignity and territorial occupation. There can be no economy without an environment. It's a truism, but I think it's important to remember that we have a responsibility in this regard.

Mr. Picard, earlier, you mentioned some recommendations made by an independent commission in 2022. Here's one of them, recommendation 9:

Accept the proposal to create the Pipmuakan protected area put forward by the Conseil des Innus de Pessamit, make it an indigenous-led protected area under the Natural Heritage Conservation Act, initiate discussions with this community with a view to entrusting it with the management and monitoring of the area and provide technical and financial assistance to that end.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

What's been done since then? Has there been any progress? Has anything been created?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

I would say that we always face administrative delays when projects come from our community.

I remember back in 2020, when the community of Pessamit told me they had submitted a project for a protected area in the Pipmuacan sector. It took several months for the Quebec government to respond. It was radio silence for months.

I think communities are welcoming the intentions expressed by the Government of Quebec and all the measures that have been taken to meet its commitment to increase protected areas in Quebec, but communities still need to be much more than stakeholders.

This area in particular has seen a breakdown in the relationship between certain leaders and the Government of Quebec. This brings me back to the Superior Court decision. Time is running out for the caribou, which means time is also running out for there to be a real definition, a common definition of the government's duty to consult.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mr. Deltell, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Picard, the current situation really comes down to a fundamental issue. There has to be a way to balance wildlife conservation and the preservation of jobs.

As everyone knows, you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. However, I'll repeat the question I asked you earlier. What message do you really want to send to people who risk losing their jobs?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

The only constructive and responsible message is to get people around the same table.

Take the Essipit community, for example. From what I've been told, they're quite willing to engage in those discussions, but when it happens through the media, it's tough. When the conditions have not been agreed upon by all the parties, it's extremely difficult.

I have read reports of public meetings held at Boisaco's initiative in Haute‑Côte‑Nord municipalities, including Sacré-Coeur and Forestville. Some of those reports are extremely concerning, and I wonder whether the conditions warrant a discussion. From our perspective, we'd certainly like to encourage that, as long as the parties agree on the conditions that need to be put in place.

On the issue of consensus, we've been trying to evolve in line with the broad principles of land and resource development for 12 years now. One of the four major themes that have emerged is conservation, which we consider to be essential and indisputable.

As long as there's room for discussion, I don't see why we'd refuse to engage in such a discussion.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

We spoke earlier about wolf hunting. I'm bringing it up again, Mr. Picard, because I think it could be a solution. I know nothing is easy in life, but this is a concrete solution. An example where it actually worked was cited. There was a 52% increase in the caribou herd in two years. That's hard to beat in terms of effectiveness.

You mentioned earlier the opinion of people in your community. Did they make a similar hypothesis? Would you be willing to promote this idea to governments and propose a concrete and natural solution? It would respect both jobs and wildlife, because it would allow wildlife to restore itself naturally.

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

I'd have a hard time not promoting it, as long as this solution is validated by the people who hold the traditional knowledge in our communities.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Will you speak with them about it?

[Chief Ghislain Picard]

I think the minutes of today's meeting will certainly contribute to those discussions back home.