Environment Committee on Aug. 26th, 2024

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you, Chief Dominique.

Mr. Verreault and Mr. Samray, I know that there is a calculation method per cubic metre of carbon sequestration. Based on Mr. Pelletier's figure of 1.4 million cubic metres, could you tell the committee what that represents in terms of carbon sequestration and construction, since we are experiencing a housing crisis?

[Jean-François Samray]

That will be very easy. We commit to doing that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Mr. Boulerice for two minutes.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Samray, I have a simple question. Earlier, you mentioned the possibility of compensation as a way through. If there were a government decision, an emergency order that would have a negative economic impact on some communities, would the compensation make it possible to delay and make that negative impact more acceptable?

[Jean-François Samray]

I would say again that the devil is in the details. It will apply to all people with jobs directly or indirectly related to the industry. The costs will be astronomical, as will the loss of revenue for the government. There will necessarily be repercussions on the Quebec and Canadian social safety net. That's clear.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Samray.

Chief Gilbert Dominique, I have a better understanding of how aboriginal rights could be threatened if the species or subspecies were to disappear. In a previous answer, you said that you worked with experts, scientists and highly reputable people. Would you be able to send the committee the documents related to the scientific data and figures to inform our discussion and our later recommendations?

[Chief Gilbert Dominique]

Absolutely. We will do that sometime today. We will get you the studies and analyses I was talking about earlier, that scientists including Martin‑Hugues St‑Laurent and Jacinthe Gosselin worked on with our first nation. You'll probably have all that today.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Excellent, thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

That's great.

Mr. Deltell, you have the floor.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Based on everything that has been said so far, it seems that it is hard to strike a balance—and this is very subjective—between protecting caribou and protecting the industry.

Mr. Samray and Mr. Verreault, what would be the first recommendation to put forward to find a balance that would be satisfactory to all parties, as far as possible?

[Jean-François Samray]

The first thing to do would be to repeal the proposed order because it has a direct impact on the industry's competitiveness in terms of prices paid at auction. That would be the very first thing. Second, we need to bring all the parties to the table to build a solution together.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Mr. Verreault, what would you say?

[Frédéric Verreault]

As you'll understand, I am going to focus on the Val‑d'Or herd, which is adjacent to where we operate. In this case, we frankly don't understand the purpose of the Abitibi component of the order. There is already a protected area that is a few thousand times larger than the occupied enclosure.

In that sense, we should come back to the table and recognize what is being done. The facts are unequivocal: We have taken firm and credible action to provide an extremely robust response to the protection of boreal caribou. Now we need to go back to scientific and biological common sense, breeding and reintroduction of the species. We need to get on with it.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you, gentlemen.

Mr. Chair, I understand there's a bit of an uproar about the time we have left. I'll turn it over to you, then.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Okay. There is one question left to complete the second and final round.

Mr. Lauzon, you have the floor.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Mr. Verreault, you've often mentioned that you've focused on protecting caribou for 15 to 20 years. I'm also impressed by the way you say your industry has transformed. Over the years, you have evolved to keep pace with socio-economic and environmental changes, as well as forest fires. You've dealt with all of that.

The kraft pulp market is in decline, as you know. Many industries have experienced a drop in demand for fine paper and newsprint. Please don't tell me that demand for newsprint, which is essentially made from kraft pulp, is increasing.

We're talking about threatened species and you say there are nine individuals left in the herd. Don't you think an emergency measure should be taken immediately?

[Frédéric Verreault]

It is extremely important to remember that the major global agencies are predicting an annual increase of 2% to 3% in kraft pulp consumption over the next 30 years. It is first and foremost an ingredient in absolutely essential products such as diapers, facial tissue, toilet paper, paper towels and, most importantly, food packaging, where it replaces single-use plastics.

Incidentally, the demand for kraft pulp is increasing. In September of each year, when we close all our sales for the following year, we actually turn down buyers. We have quality kraft pulp that comes—

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Let me remind you that I am talking about the kraft pulp used for fine paper and newsprint. I did not mention toilet paper or packaging.

[Frédéric Verreault]

I am talking about consolidated kraft pulp for all uses.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

However, the message is not about kraft pulp. The message is that you have been able to adapt each time things progress. Would it not be a good idea now to take steps to protect your nine individuals?

[Frédéric Verreault]

The nine individuals from the Val‑d'Or herd are undeniable proof that the situation is critical. It may even be too late to fix the problem, and it may be time to do a post-mortem instead.

That said, to give you an idea of the scope and importance of the situation, we are talking today about nine individuals and a reserve of 43,000 hectares of land where there is no forestry activity. An area larger than the city of Montreal is now exempt from industrial activity in response to this critical situation. We're responding to that.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

It's not up to me to assess whether the caribou have enough space in your forest. We rely on the scientists, studies that have been done, technical data, the consultations we are conducting and those conducted by the Government of Quebec. As a politician, what else could I rely on?

[Frédéric Verreault]

We certainly recognize the challenge that legislators, members of Parliament and ministers have in relying on science and solid evidence.

From a factual and pragmatic standpoint, for this population of nine, the order would expand the conservation area from Val‑d'Or to Rouyn‑Noranda, which is over 100 kilometres. We take into account the science, and we have scientists on our teams.

Clearly, we have to separate the factual, pragmatic and documented aspects from the scientific opinions in order to start taking action for this vulnerable herd in Val‑d'Or.

[Stéphane Lauzon, Liberal, Argenteuil—La Petite-Nation, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We have 20 seconds, and Mr. Samray wanted to get in on the debate.