Environment Committee on Aug. 26th, 2024

[Lise Boulianne]

Yes, we took part in consultations about two years ago.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

Do you have any requests for the federal and provincial elected members?

[Lise Boulianne]

I would ask them to sit down with our forestry companies and work together. There are people back home who are able to come up with solutions for our governments. As I was saying, it is important to work together.

[Sophie Chatel, Liberal, Pontiac, QC]

I agree with you.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Your speaking time is up, Mrs. Chatel.

Now it is Mr. Simard's turn.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Boulianne, Mr. St‑Gelais and Mr. Gilbert, I just want to say from the outset that I think you are brave. We have been talking about the anxiety that this situation is causing for you. I am well aware of that.

Mayor Boulianne, you say that 70% of the population of Sacré‑Coeur relies, let's be real, on Boisaco. That is not nothing.

We hope the worst will not happen, that this order will not be applied. That being said, people have concerns. Are some of the dreaded effects already being felt in your community?

[Lise Boulianne]

This morning I would not say that we are brave so much as determined.

Yes, there has been an impact. I have already talked to the people from Boisaco. What we are seeing in our municipality right now is that there are next to no applications for building or renovation permits. The number of applications is in free fall. People are fearful and protecting their assets. That is all they can do.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

It is not a stretch to say that there are people in Sacré‑Cœur who believe that applying this order would spell the end of their municipality. I do not want to belabour this, but that is what they believe.

[Lise Boulianne]

We have to face the facts: Boisaco closing its doors would be devastating.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you.

I have been interested in the forestry industry for a long time. We are often told that there are players in this industry who use questionable practices or do nothing more than produce basic products such as two-by-fours. Anyway, the good thing about Boisaco is that it has decided to focus on added value. That comes up all the time when I talk to people in the forestry sector. They told us that you had exceptional practices. Congratulations, Mr. St‑Gelais. The order is even more distressing when it applies to one of the good actors in the forestry sector.

I would like to talk about the objective of protecting the ecotype. Ecotype protection cannot be done without forest management. We are aware of the different problems related to the spruce budworm and the fires. If there is no forest management and we put the forest under a glass dome, do you think that will protect the ecotype?

Mr. Gilbert can probably answer that question.

[Steeve St-Gelais]

Yes, I will ask Mr. Gilbert to answer that question.

[André Gilbert]

That is an excellent question.

Let's compare the forest managers, the professional foresters of Quebec, to a general contractor who builds homes. The latter has to consider everything as a whole, deal with plumbers or electricians, in other words experts in their field. Similarly, professional foresters have to consider what large fauna biologists have to say about caribou, in this case the boreal caribou ecotype. That is essential.

However, as we know, pursuant to the legislation, professional foresters have exclusive domain over management plans in Quebec. Professional foresters are trained to incorporate every aspect of the forest, namely the environment, hydrology, botany, and biology of large fauna, of course, and all the other relevant aspects such as forest fires, insect outbreaks and forest renewal.

Currently in Canada and Quebec, we are experiencing extremely intense forest fires that are set to increase in frequency in the future. Forest management is an important response for forest fire abatement. It has been demonstrated that when a forest is managed, fires are less intense and not as widespread because of the access that is created to fight the fires. In my career, I have fought many forest fires. This helps us to prevent the fires from spreading. It is a way of renewing the forest.

I do not want to give a lesson in forestry, but there is something else that is important to consider and know. If we look only at the issue of habitat and put a glass dome over the forest, as you say, Mr. Simard, then we will no longer be able to intervene and manage the forest. That is not going to stop the forest fires or the insect outbreaks like the spruce budworm outbreak. By the way, back home, on the north shore, millions of cubic metres of wood have been affected by that type of insect. In the past decade or more, 80% of the wood harvested was affected by the spruce budworm. Otherwise, it would be a total loss. If the wood affected by the fires or by the insect outbreaks is not recovered, then it inevitably decomposes. Deer, including the boreal caribou and caribou ecotype, avoid windthrow areas.

After a fire, regeneration can take 25 to 30 years. The forest does not come back because it was not recovered or reforested. Forest management is a response to climate change, but it also helps recreate habitat more quickly for the caribou during natural disasters. Natural disasters are not going to go away. They existed 1,000 years ago, 25 years ago, and they will continue to exist, even intensify, in the future.

Forest management is the cornerstone of any plan. What is more, it is the reason we say that the caribou population is influenced by many factors. A small number of the boreal caribou ecotype lives in the forest. It is very dispersed. Yes, it will be influenced by anthropic disturbances, but it will also be influenced by the climate. Recent studies conducted in western Canada clearly show that climate change had more of an impact than human disturbances.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

It is now Mr. Boulerice's turn.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I am extremely pleased to be here with you today.

I thank the guests from the first group of witnesses. This is the first meeting on a truly important study on the future of the boreal caribou, which is an ecotype of a subspecies found only in Quebec. I truly thank them. This is an extremely important topic that affects a host of aspects, including regional development and the survival of certain municipalities, as we heard. It is also a matter of good jobs in the forestry sector and the future of our young people.

At the NDP, we are deeply concerned about achieving truly sustainable development that would ensure a future for the young people in the regions concerned, whether Haute‑Côte‑Nord, the Gaspésie or even Charlevoix. What is more, we want to be responsible when it comes to threatened or endangered species. This also applies to subspecies, from what I understand.

We cannot rely on fine speeches and great discussions like the ones we saw in Montreal, when we hosted the entire planet at the United Nations COP15. We need to take an approach that is based on science and facts.

I am pleased to have the chance to hear all these testimonies this afternoon. They illustrate how complex this issue is with all its variable factors. Human or industrial activity is one of the factors that can influence the future of a species or a subspecies, but there are other factors, including climate change, that Mr. Gilbert spoke about. Certain insects and certain disasters can also have consequences.

We want to be able to save our municipalities and our villages and provide good jobs to our young people, but we do not want to be responsible for the disappearance of a globally unique subspecies. Around the world we are seeing the accelerated disappearance of living species. Some scientists are even talking about ecological collapse. Species are not only disappearing, but those that are still around have fewer and fewer individuals. Some say that 60% to 75% of individuals or bird species or land species are disappearing.

We have to find a balance. Sometimes it can be hard to achieve, but it is essential to be able to ensure both aspects, especially as elected members or parliamentarians.

In 2016, the Government of Quebec recognized—

[Lise Boulianne]

Is there going to be a question?

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Yes, of course I will ask you a question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Ms. Boulianne, I know it is taking a while, but this is the member's speaking time. He can use it as he sees fit. That being said, I know Mr. Boulerice well and I presume he will have a question for you at the end of all this.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Of course, Mr. Chair.

In 2016, the Government of Quebec recognized the need to develop a strategy for protecting the boreal caribou and the mountainous caribou. Thereafter, the Commission indépendante sur les caribous forestiers et montagnards submitted 35 recommendations to the department, including the first one as follows:

The Commission recommends that the [department] swiftly proceed to the development and implementation of a boreal caribou protection and recovery strategy that builds on existing expertise and the recommendations stemming from this consultation. In the meantime, existing administrative protection measures should be implemented to preserve the most appropriate sectors, including by imposing moratoriums to protect old-growth forests.

I will turn to Mr. Gilbert.

First, do you agree with this recommendation, that there needs to be a caribou protection and recovery strategy? We are talking about a need.

Second, what sort of administrative protective measures would be best and the most acceptable in your view, for your co‑operative and for the industry?

[André Gilbert]

Thank you for your question.

First, in your preamble, you alluded to the fact that the species could disappear, which is false. The woodland caribou subspecies, found in Quebec, has 180,000 individuals and that number is growing. The order addresses only the boreal caribou ecotype, and even certain populations of that ecotype in particular have been selected to be protected for reasons that we will not get into here.

A protection strategy is definitely needed. It is very clear that the order addresses just one of a multitude of factors that influence the boreal caribou ecotype, namely the habitat. The idea was that putting the boreal caribou habitat under a glass dome would help achieve a certain result, but that is totally false. The boreal caribou ecotype is influenced by a host of factors, including climate change, forest management, of course, and predation. Obviously predators are the primary cause of death in the boreal caribou ecotype. There is also subsistence hunting and poaching, of course. These are things that can be controlled. However, there is currently no measure, not in the order or anywhere else, that addresses these factors. It should be noted that these factors fall under provincial jurisdiction, not federal.

The only way to come up with a plan that works is to address all the factors, especially the most significant ones, including predation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

That ends the first round of questions. We will now move on to the second round, where each speaker will have five minutes. The members of the Bloc Québécois and the NDP will have two and half minutes.

It is Mr. Martel's turn once again. He will go first.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We are here today to talk about the threat the order poses. I hear you talking about management and predation and it makes me wonder: What is the point of this order other than to kill the forestry industry?

[Steeve St-Gelais]

That is a good question, Mr. Martel.

Essentially, the order is worded with a rather unilateral vision. It does not take into account all of the other factors. All we can say is that this order will take us down the wrong path.

I would like to come back to something we talked about earlier regarding solutions. As I was saying, we have worked very hard to understand the provincial government's challenges. There is finally some awareness of this, but I do want to note that the measures were announced only in May. It was announced that the 5,000‑square kilometre protected area would be doubled in size to 10,000 square kilometres. That represents 20 times the size of the Island of Montreal. That is not nothing. It is rather considerable, but some seem to think that it is nothing. This raises a question for us and we think it is a shame. We might say that there is a blind will to protect the habitat, that that is the only thing that counts and that the other repercussions are being minimized. Our communities are directly affected and we are going to continue to intervene to keep our organization alive, by using the same determination of those who revitalized our community 40 years ago.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

If the order is applied, Boisaco cannot survive. Is that correct, Mayor Boulianne?

[Lise Boulianne]

Indeed, if the order is applied as currently worded, the survival of Boisaco will be at risk.

[Richard Martel, Conservative, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

That is not to mention the other questions that have been raised.