Environment Committee on Aug. 30th, 2024

[Yanick Baillargeon]

I'll give you a very simple example. Twenty-five per cent of the chips used by the Clermont paper mill come directly from the Boisaco sawmill. If Boisaco is shut down, the Clermont mill won't have access to 25% of the Clermont mill's chip supply. That will certainly have repercussions, and these will be felt throughout the industry, and so on.

We talk about bioeconomy and tertiary processing. I no longer have access to that. If we lose mills, it affects the supply of by-products to another factory. That's what I mean when I talk about links in the chain. You have to understand that a mill is not alone in its environment. Many others are linked to it, and many communities are interrelated.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Baillargeon.

I'll yield the rest of my time to Mr. Simard.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Brunelle-Duceppe.

Thank you for joining us today, Mr. Baillargeon.

You've clearly demonstrated what we call the domino effect on the forestry sector. When we remove one link in the chain, the whole chain is affected.

I'd also like to hear your comments on what we might call the “cumulative effect”.

Yesterday, there was a great demonstration in Saguenay—Lac‑Saint‑Jean. The thorny issue of the caribou was highlighted, but there was also the issue of tariffs. The forestry sector is experiencing a highly unfavourable economic climate, and I'm sure you can give us more information on this.

[Yanick Baillargeon]

In fact, several situations involve the Quebec government and the federal government. We're all familiar with the U.S. softwood lumber surtax that's currently in effect. We're close to 15%. That money is currently frozen at customs, and manufacturers have no access to it. That prevents them from evolving, reinvesting in their mills and, above all, innovating. Then there's the price of fibre, which is influenced by Quebec's forestry regime. It's always said that the cost of harvesting fibre from the forest is too high, and that the market for wood is not good. What's more, there's the threat of a decree on caribou. Right now, we're gasping for air. Our heads are under water and we can't catch our breath. There's a noose around our neck.

Pick any example you like to describe the situation, right now we're being choked from all sides.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

Earlier, you highlighted the specific case of Saskatchewan, whose disruption rate is 60%. To your knowledge, is there scientific data to prove that a disturbance rate below 35% is needed in Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean to save the caribou?

In your opinion, before applying the order, shouldn't we try to obtain other types of scientific data and, perhaps above all, try to conduct a crossover study between what was done in Saskatchewan and what's happening at home in Saguenay—Lac-Saint-Jean and on the north shore?

[Yanick Baillargeon]

We've been asking the federal government for that over the past few years. We had already approached Minister Guilbeault about this. We didn't get an answer. We were really trying to see how we could apply this measure to Quebec, because clearly we could do that in certain sectors. We need to make sure the species survives, and that's what Saskatchewan has done. The sectors that are said to be able to ensure the survival of the species may have a higher disturbance rate, and some sectors will have a disturbance rate below 35%. Of course, that can be done, but they never studied a measure like that, they never introduced it and they never even responded to the request.

[Mario Simard, Bloc, Jonquière, QC]

I will give the final word to my colleague.

[Alexis Brunelle-Duceppe, Bloc, Lac-Saint-Jean, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Baillargeon, some people tell us that if forestry communities see their facilities close down, they will be able to easily reinvent themselves. I come from a forestry region and I was a forestry worker. I worked at the Alma paper mill.

Do you think that kind of comment is realistic?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Please give a very brief answer.

[Yanick Baillargeon]

I'll be very quick. I can give you the example of Val‑Jalbert, which everyone knows about. Its mill has shut down and it's now a ghost town.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mr. Boulerice, you will wrap up this first round of questions. The floor is yours.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thank everyone for being here today for this important study.

I think we all have the same concern, which is to preserve good jobs and the vitality of the regions, save towns and avoid closures. This is a central concern. At the same time, the threat to the woodland caribou subspecies is real. It's been documented for a long time and promises were made to deliver strategies.

I think we all need to feel a sense of urgency about the caribou, who are not at the table to express what they're experiencing and how they're feeling. I liked what Chief Dufour said about striking a balance between this sense of urgency for the species and the need to be concerned about economic development and saving jobs. I'd like to ask him a question about that.

I've recently read what a lot of biologists have to say, and they feel that the caribou species are an indicator of how healthy a forest is and how balanced its ecosystem is.

How would the potential loss of boreal caribou affect the health of our forests?

[Chief Martin Dufour]

We've already discussed that and I've heard from scientists about it. A study on the health of our boreal forest may be in order, because the caribou aren't its sole inhabitants. Other species migrate and live in mature forests. I'd really like to know more about the health of our boreal forest and not just the caribou's health. Scientists have requested that. I'm sorry, I don't recall who it was, but something tangible is needed, a study or a consultation between various departments so that we know how much wood we will have and how far we can go to retain jobs.

Our motto is “For Our Fathers and Children”. Everything we do at Essipit is focused on making sure our seniors have a good quality of life and passing that on to our children. I want my child to be able to work in the forestry sector one day, but also go and hunt caribou. Ideally, that's what I'd like to see. Is that going to be possible? It's not up to me.

We really need to know where we're headed, as I said earlier. Let's take off the blinders and try to look further ahead. I'm sure we have people smart enough to do that in Canada, Quebec and our first nations.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

I agree with you, Chief Dufour. However, just to educate us a little more, can you tell us what the difference is for caribou between a mature forest and a young forest or one that's just been reforested? How does that affect the species?

[Chief Martin Dufour]

I'll ask Mr. Ross to answer that question. He's a biologist with us and the director of development and territory.

[Michael Ross, Director of Development and Territory, Council of the Innu First Nation of Essipit]

Thank you, Chief Dufour.

Yes, the first message I'd like to convey today is that we've heard a lot from first nations and industry, but not from scientists. Leading scientists in Quebec could certainly tell you even more about it than I can, even though I'm a biologist.

Basically, forest rejuvenation and clearing the land bring in caribou predators, including wolves and bears. That has an impact on the caribou's survival, because it makes them more vulnerable. When the land is cleared and the forest rejuvenates, that draws moose and predators. Wolves see no difference between a caribou and a moose, at the end of the day.

That's the biological answer I can give you, but scientists could shed more light on this.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Ross.

[Chief Martin Dufour]

I have something else to add.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Go ahead.

[Chief Martin Dufour]

I know that your committee is studying these issues, but I think Mr. Ross raises an important point: Few scientists have come and testified before the committee. I don't know which witnesses have been invited to testify. I haven't checked to see all the witnesses appearing before the committee, but it would have been a good idea to invite renowned scientists, who are neutral, both for the industry and to strike a balance in all this. They could have testified before the committee.

I just wanted to say that.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Chief Dufour, you're also a business owner. You're involved with companies in the forest industry. You're appearing before the committee with people you know well, both those participating online and those here in the room. You co‑own the same company, but you come to completely different conclusions. For someone on the outside, like me, that's a bit disturbing.

[Chief Martin Dufour]

We've always said that we've never been against economic development. We're taking part in it and will continue to do so. We say that we want to promote a balance between protecting our territory and economic development. We protect the environment.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We understand what you're saying. You're looking for a middle ground. We understand that.

We'll start the second round of questions with Mr. Deltell.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to your parliamentary committee on the radical Liberal order about the woodland caribou.

Chief Dufour, you're joining us online from your nation's territory. In fact, I can see on the screen that you're in the office and that the flag of the Innu First Nation of Essipit's flag is right behind you.

I don't want to assume anything, but am I to understand that the caribou is on your nation's flag?

[Chief Martin Dufour]

Our animal emblem is the moose, Mr. Deltell.