Evidence of meeting #119 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was habitat.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Joël Godin Conservative Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC
My question is simple: Compared to other groups of boreal caribou, are the three groups identified southernmost in Canada?
Director, Association québécoise des entrepreneurs forestiers
Yes, absolutely.
Liberal
Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to all of the witnesses for being here.
My question is for Yvan Duceppe.
In your opening statement you mentioned that to protect the caribou, fewer trees must be cut. I think we all know that, given the number of agreements we've signed on biodiversity and the fact that we have not just a transition but a Sustainable Jobs Act now, and despite the Conservatives' putting forward 20,000 motions to try to stall that, we are trying to transition.
The Quebec government has several programs in place, including some of their retraining programs and their workforce development funds, and then there are community-based diversification programs. I'm wondering whether you think these programs have had any impact in actually helping to transition the workforce and whether the forestry companies in Quebec have also been participating in this transition that we all know is necessary.
Treasurer, Confédération des syndicats nationaux
Thank you for your question. I would like to ask my colleague, Julien Laflamme, to answer it.
Policy Advisor, Confédération des syndicats nationaux
These programs have led to some positive experiences. In sawmills, for example, people managed to obtain recognition of prior learning for an attestation of college studies diploma in production equipment operation.
These are significant components, but I would say that they're just a few examples—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Laflamme, but the sound quality isn't good enough for the interpretation.
You have a minute and a half left, Ms. Taylor Roy. Would you like to ask someone else to answer your question?
Liberal
Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Mr. Duceppe, perhaps you or Mr. Bolduc have a response regarding the kinds of efforts that have been made by the Quebec government and the forestry companies to retrain workers.
We know this has been an issue since 2003, when the caribou were first put under the Species at Risk Act, and we've been signing biodiversity frameworks and agreements since the 1990s. I'm just wondering what work has been done and whether you think it's sufficient to help these workers transition to other areas in which they are going to be in long-term, sustainable jobs.
Treasurer, Confédération des syndicats nationaux
As Mr. Laflamme said, tangible examples have produced results. On our end, when the Petit Paris sawmill faced threats of closure, people received training. That's all very well, and we support that. However, it isn't enough. More funding is needed to meet all needs.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Thank you.
I want to thank the panel for this valuable discussion. We'll take a short break to welcome the second panel before continuing the meeting.
I want to thank the witnesses again. We would like to wish them a good day.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Now that the sound tests have been completed, we're ready to hear from our second panel.
Committee members, please take your seats.
We're joined by Martin‑Hugues St‑Laurent, full professor of animal ecology at the Université du Québec à Rimouski, who is appearing as an individual; Luc Vachon, president of the Centrale des syndicats démocratiques; Benjamin Dufour, president of Ripco Inc.; and Daniel Cloutier, Quebec director of Unifor Québec.
Mr. St‑Laurent, we'll start with you. You have five minutes for your opening remarks.
Prof. Martin-Hugues St-Laurent Full Professor of Animal Ecology, Université du Québec à Rimouski, As an Individual
Good morning.
Mr. Chair, committee members, thank you for inviting me to answer your questions. I'm a full professor of animal ecology. For the past 16 years, I've run a research program that focuses on caribou, their predators and their competitors. I'm a recognized caribou expert in Canada.
An emergency order under the Species at Risk Act constitutes a test of our ability to manage our natural resources soundly and effectively; to protect our biodiversity; to comply with legislation and regulations; and to uphold our moral and ethical commitments on the international stage.
Between 1989 and 2024, 881 scientific articles regarding the woodland caribou subspecies were published in international scientific journals. Of these articles, 454 addressed different aspects of boreal caribou populations. In addition, many master's theses, doctoral dissertations and government reports have been published. This body of scientific work has made the caribou one of the most studied species in the country. On the basis of this work, the experts from the Committee on the Status of Endangered Wildlife in Canada—of which I was a member—could assess variations in abundance, survival and recruitment rates and population demographic trajectories. It also helped them to synthesize their knowledge of the threats facing the caribou and, in May 2002, to recommend a threatened species status. This designation remains valid to this day.
Despite the wealth of widely accepted evidence in the scientific community, a number of players in the field are working hard to spread misinformation and scientific denial in the media. This contributes to the social polarization observed in relation to this challenge. Some of these individuals actually appeared before the committee to relay incomplete or incorrect information or even lies about the situation of boreal caribou populations in Quebec, the causes of the decline and possible solutions.
As an expert, I want to warn you about this misinformation campaign. Science knows more than what your committee is being told. Establishing a negotiated way out that benefits caribou and minimizes the socio‑economic impact on forestry communities requires acknowledging the scientific evidence and avoiding shortcuts.
In managed boreal forests, caribou are declining mainly as a result of predation exacerbated by human disturbances. Logging opens up and rejuvenates forests and provides accessible, abundant, rich and digestible food resources. This supports the population growth of alternative prey, such as moose and deer, and, in turn, of caribou predators, such as bears, coyotes and wolves. This response goes hand in hand with an increase in the predators' ability to patrol the area and hunt caribou, as a result of the dense network of logging roads. Forest management plays a key role in the decline. It triggers a series of events that result in high predation pressure. This finding is recognized by the Quebec government in the literature review of the factors involved in the decline of woodland caribou populations in Quebec and mountain caribou in Gaspésie, published in 2021.
For a number of years, various teams of researchers have been documenting the significance of other drivers of decline, including the impact of past and future climate change. Their findings are solid and widely accepted. The impact of logging and logging roads far outweighs the effects of other drivers of decline, including climate change, both in explaining past declines and in modelling future changes. Moreover, science shows that climate change will have a significant impact on forestry employment, even without protection for caribou.
It's important to note the high quality of the data obtained from the monitoring of caribou populations in Quebec. This data supports the arguments of the emergency order by providing a crystal clear picture of habitat conditions and the state of populations. I want to remind you that the experts aren't just in the universities, but also in a number of federal and provincial departments that we work with. I trust the expertise of these biologists and wildlife technicians.
In light of the available knowledge, clearly the measures implemented by the Quebec government for over a decade aren't enough to ensure caribou recovery in the province. I have sat on enough committees to assess these methods. The emergency order is amply justified. The federal government is simply implementing the legislation given the absence of a provincial strategy deemed effective enough to contribute to the species' recovery.
In my opinion, the proposed order could be more ambitious, since it already amounts to a compromise. Only three ranges are targeted, even though an assessment of imminent threats could show the urgency to take action for other populations. The area covered by the order remains limited in relation to the size of the populations' ranges. Certain types of disturbances may be excluded from the order, including critical mineral exploration and mining projects, despite scientific evidence of the mining industry's negative impact. As a result, the order is more of a compromise than a radical protection strategy under a glass dome.
Major changes to caribou habitat management policies are needed. It's necessary to think about how to truly strike a balance between caribou and habitat conservation and sustainable forestry that respects all the roles, species and values of this ecosystem. However, this goal is impossible to achieve without affecting the forestry potential and, by extension, jobs and economic benefits.
I completely understand the concerns of a number of interest groups regarding the implementation of the order. It's important to consider this impact without losing sight of the legal obligation to effectively protect caribou and their habitat.
Liberal
Luc Vachon President, Centrale des syndicats démocratiques
Good morning, Mr. Chair.
Good morning, members of the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development.
My name is Luc Vachon. I'm the president of the Centrale des syndicats démocratiques, or CSD. I want to thank you for this opportunity to convey a message from our organization.
The CSD represents almost 2,000 employees working directly or indirectly in the forestry industry. These include about 400 workers at Groupe Rémabec's Parent mill in the Mauricie region and its L'Ascension mill in the Saguenay—Lac‑Saint‑Jean region.
Since the announcement of the order, employees in the forestry industry have been deeply concerned. We can neither support nor accept the proposed order in its current form. Media attention has focused on the boreal caribou issue. However, no pun intended, focusing solely and specifically on the caribou is—if I may—like failing to see the forest for the trees.
The Quebec forestry industry has been going through a series of crises for a number of years. So this isn't the first. Consider, for example, the fires of 2023, the ever‑increasing cost and loss of quality of wood supplies and the United States' ongoing implementation of countervailing tariffs on softwood lumber. I would say that the Quebec forestry industry is on the brink of another wave of mill closures and consolidations. It won't be the first time. A number of workers are facing a high risk of losing their jobs. These job losses would also have a disastrous impact on the employees' communities.
The federal government's impact analysis confirms this by estimating that approximately 1,400 jobs will be lost. In our opinion, this falls far short of the real impact on communities. In this environment, the order regarding the boreal caribou could make the situation much worse or sound the death knell for the already weakened industry. It's hard not to feel cynical about the order's actual effectiveness when we hear, for example, that Hydro‑Québec projects or the proposed gold mine in Abitibi may not be subject to the order.
Should people in the industry feel that they matter less? This raises questions. It's crucial to protect the boreal caribou. Forestry industry workers are ready, with the right guidance and support, to help with the effort. The caribou is considered an iconic animal for Quebec. I can say that the people whom we represent and who live in the regions are well aware of this.
However, these people's concerns must also be taken into account. No government, provincial or federal, has really done this to date. We deplore both Quebec's inaction and Ottawa's heavy‑handed approach. We know that Ottawa doesn't mean to punish the workers in the sector. However, the fact remains that this order, in its current form, could do just that.
We don't want forestry industry employees to bear the brunt of a political tug‑of‑war between Ottawa and Quebec. We believe that yet another dispute over jurisdiction between the two levels of government is pointless and that it will harm both the industry and environmental protection. We urge Ottawa and Quebec to work together to protect the caribou and put an end to the insecurity faced by forestry industry employees, so that promising long‑term solutions can finally be developed.
The $650 million that the federal government is prepared to give to British Columbia for its own environmental protection efforts attests to this. The same applies to the economic diversification fund provided by Ottawa and Quebec following the closure of the Gentilly‑2 nuclear power plant.
You can work together, and when you do, you get good results. In particular, we're calling for a collaborative approach guided by the principles of a fair transition. This means transforming Quebec's forestry industry into a modern, innovative and resilient industry that causes less damage to the environment. Rather than being a barrier, the caribou crisis must become an opportunity. In any case, the employees' concerns and needs must play a key role in this plan, in order to limit the impact and provide proper compensation. Rather than seeing workers as resources and thinking that they can simply change jobs, as if it were that straightforward in the regions, we believe that the focus should be on people and providing proper support during these changes.
How much is the federal government prepared to invest to encourage the modernization of the forestry industry—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Mr. Vachon, you'll need to provide this information to the committee during the question and answer period.
Benjamin Dufour President, Ripco Inc.
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Committee members, thank you for this opportunity to speak today on behalf of Ripco. As president of Ripco, I want to share my serious concerns about the federal government's plan to pass an order to protect boreal caribou. The steps taken by the Minister of the Environment and Climate Change, Steven Guilbeault, in June sparked fear among our workers and residents. This type of order would have a devastating and irreversible impact on our company and our community.
Founded in 2001, Ripco Inc. is an affiliate of Groupe Boisaco. It operates on the Sacré‑Coeur industrial site. It works in partnership with Litière Royal, based in Quebec City. Your committee also heard from representatives of that company. We specialize in manufacturing and marketing equestrian litter, which comes from the shavings generated by Boisaco's plants. The plant is now state‑of‑the‑art after our major investments over the past three years. Ripco brings together eight workers and their families, who depend on its survival to make a decent living. Like all Groupe Boisaco companies, Ripco is based on a unique co‑operative model. This model is recognized in our industry and throughout Quebec. It was also born of Groupe Boisaco's desire to diversify its activities by using waste from sawmills and planing mills to create new products. As a result, Ripco supplies exceptional products across Canada and the United States, generating significant direct benefits in our community. However, our activities depend on Boisaco's ability to supply our raw material, which is wood shavings.
You must understand that, if Mr. Guilbault's order were implemented, it wouldn't just affect Boisaco, but all the companies that depend on the waste produced by Boisaco's sawmills and planing mills. This includes include Ripco. Regarding the proposed federal order, the militant actions of the environment minister are driving us ever closer to a dead end. These actions create polarization and escalate a debate that must be cooled down in order to find fair and equitable solutions. They also conflict with the Quebec government's efforts to promote a phased approach adapted to the realities of each region concerned.
Since I started out as a forestry worker, in 1998, I've seen the development of the various measures put in place to protect the caribou. To date, thousands of hectares of forest have been left untouched to protect the caribou. Some stakeholders feel that these still‑standing forests seem invisible. However, they still exist, even though some of them have been heavily affected by the spruce budworm epidemic and are also highly vulnerable to the all‑too‑common forest fires.
As a resident of Sacré‑Coeur, I take its vitality to heart. Like a number of my friends and colleagues, I volunteer with various non‑profit organizations dedicated to providing quality services to our community. For over 11 years, I've been the president of the ZEC Chauvin, a controlled harvesting zone just outside Sacré‑Coeur. I can assure you that, without the forestry operations carried out in our ZEC, we wouldn't be able to provide the quality of experience enjoyed by over 500 members from across Quebec. In our ZEC, as in the other ZECs of the Haute‑Côte‑Nord and Saguenay regions, Boisaco's forestry operations have greatly helped to maintain and improve the road networks that play a vital role in forest activities and firefighting. The organizations are fortunate to be able to benefit from these major investments and to ensure that their members can continue to access their services at an affordable price.
I'll close with this thought. What type of society do we want in Canada? Do we want a society where we agree to sacrifice 2,000 families, thereby violating their basic right to a dignified life, or a society where decisions take into account the social, economic and environmental spheres—the three pillars of sustainable development? I dare to hope that the second option will lead us to fair and enlightened decisions that ensure the development of biodiversity and human communities.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Thank you, Mr. Dufour.
We'll now turn to Mr. Cloutier from Unifor Québec.
Daniel Cloutier Quebec Director, Unifor Québec
Thank you, Mr. Chair and committee members.
Unifor represents 320,000 members across Canada. With members in almost every major industrial sector, it's the country's largest private‑sector union. In Quebec, Unifor has nearly 15,000 members in the forestry industry. They work in every region, from Abitibi‑Témiscamingue to Gaspésie.
The workers whom we represent take part in all levels of processing and activity areas in the sector. These include forestry, logging, firefighting, transportation, lumber, engineered wood, panels, wake equipment, pulp, paper, cardboard, cellulose, pellets, packaging, flooring, furniture, kitchen cabinets, doors, windows or printing, and the list goes on.
For a number of years, Unifor has been closely monitoring the development of public initiatives aimed at restoring boreal and mountain caribou populations in Quebec. The current and upcoming initiatives designed to achieve this goal pose a major challenge for the forestry industry. Moreover, they could have major repercussions for our members.
To date, this proposed order constitutes the most significant conservation measure in terms of its potential impact on the province's forestry activities and, indirectly, on the economic activity generated by the forestry industry.
In 2022, Quebec's chief forester's analysis of the most restrictive management scenario assessed by the independent commission on boreal and mountain caribou estimated losses at around 824,300 gross cubic metres per year for all seven regions within the range.
This time, Quebec's chief forester calculates a loss of 1.393 million gross cubic metres per year for the four regions affected, not the seven, and specifically the three zones established under the agreement for the current emergency order. For reference purposes, the average volume of a sawmill is around 300,000 cubic metres.
Unifor recognizes that the situation is alarming for a number of the boreal and mountain caribou herds found in Quebec. Their long‑acknowledged vulnerability is a major source of concern. Unifor acknowledges that the increase in the cumulative disturbance rate across the range of both ecosystems is lowering the probability of population survival.
The disturbances affecting caribou vary, and a number of them stem from natural or climate‑related events. However, it has been established that certain human‑related disturbances, including industrial forestry, can contribute to their decline.
Unifor recognizes that the Quebec government has implemented a range of measures, recovery plans and habitat management plans. These include predator management, logging road closures and the creation of protected areas and biodiversity reserves. In short, a series of measures seeks to resolve the situation. Unfortunately, these measures have failed to bring the situation under control.
However, the forestry sector is in crisis. The federal government's proposed emergency order comes at a pivotal time for Quebec's forestry industry. The industry is currently facing an unprecedented crisis on a number of levels. The 2023 forest fire season was catastrophic. It alone resulted in a loss of forest potential estimated by Quebec's chief forester at over 849,000 gross cubic metres per year.
According to Quebec's chief forester, over 920,000 hectares earmarked for forest management have been affected. Plant closures are continuing in various production sectors, such as paper, cellulose and lumber. The current market weakness, high timber auction prices and uncertain access to the resource are driving companies to develop consolidation strategies that will result in further closures and job losses.
The trade dispute with the United States continues. The latest review of the final combined duty rates set by the United States Department of Commerce was marked by a sharp increase from 8% to 15%.
All these measures are currently hampering and seriously affecting the forestry industry. The socio‑economic impact of the measures associated with this emergency order will be exacerbated by an already difficult situation. This situation calls for a comprehensive response involving the various public authorities, based on their respective responsibilities.
Unifor strongly deplores the fact that our current situation runs in stark contrast to this reality. The politicization of the crisis doesn't serve the interests of the public, the workers or the caribou. Only the politicians benefit. The current dynamic of conflict harms all the parties concerned. It's a waste of precious time and resources and takes us further away from meaningful solutions.
If the federal government really wants to help, it should do so through a comprehensive transition support framework, not by launching a new debate. Solutions do exist. It's necessary to create a number of response frameworks that also take into account the socio‑economic impact on workers and the people affected.
The departments responsible for natural resources, labour—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Mr. Cloutier, unfortunately, we must stop here.
Mr. Martel, you have the floor.
Conservative
Richard Martel Conservative Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank the witnesses for making themselves available for this meeting.
Mr. St‑Laurent, you directly associate the recovery of caribou populations—meaning their self‑sufficiency—with the habitat disturbance rate. To ensure this recovery, I gather that the level of disturbance must be lowered to less than 35%. This means that 65% of the habitat should be devoid of roads and of forest stands under 50 years old.
Is that right?
Full Professor of Animal Ecology, Université du Québec à Rimouski, As an Individual
Conservative
Richard Martel Conservative Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC
Okay.
If we take into account permanent disturbances, such as main roads, power lines, buildings, cottages, hunting camps, mines, dams, wind turbines, railroads and pipelines, and the buffer zone of about 500 metres around this infrastructure, is the critical threshold of a 35% disturbance rate still achievable?