Evidence of meeting #119 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was habitat.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Justina Ray  President and Senior Scientist, Wildlife Conservation Society Canada, As an Individual
Martin Bouchard  Director, Association québécoise des entrepreneurs forestiers
Yvan Duceppe  Treasurer, Confédération des syndicats nationaux
Denis Bolduc  General Secretary, Fédération des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec
Isabelle Ménard  Union Advisor, Confédération des syndicats nationaux
Julien Laflamme  Policy Advisor, Confédération des syndicats nationaux
Patrick Rondeau  Union Advisor, Environment and Just Transition, Fédération des travailleurs et travailleuses du Québec
Martin-Hugues St-Laurent  Full Professor of Animal Ecology, Université du Québec à Rimouski, As an Individual
Luc Vachon  President, Centrale des syndicats démocratiques
Benjamin Dufour  President, Ripco Inc.
Daniel Cloutier  Quebec Director, Unifor Québec
Louis Bélanger  Professor (Retired), Sustainable Forest Management, Faculty of forestry, Laval University, As an Individual
Luis Calzado  Chief Executive Officer, Association québécoise de la production d'énergie renouvelable
Rachel Plotkin  Boreal Project Manager, David Suzuki Foundation

12:30 p.m.

Full Professor of Animal Ecology, Université du Québec à Rimouski, As an Individual

Prof. Martin-Hugues St-Laurent

I'm very familiar with that study. I was one of the experts who reviewed it before it was published.

Those are two measures we can put in place that could potentially work. In fact, the Government of Quebec is already doing it in the Val‑d'Or, Charlevoix and Gaspé regions. They have enclosures and do occasional predator control.

Now, if we keep allowing new-growth forests, we will stray from the finish line. We cannot do that, since it will force us to take these interim measures for a longer time. We absolutely need to work in tandem with—

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you, Mr. St‑Laurent.

Mrs. Chatel, you have the floor.

Sophie Chatel Liberal Pontiac, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, everyone.

I'd like to go to Mr. Vachon.

We've talked a lot about jobs, sustainable jobs, the responsibility of governments to invest in sustainable jobs in the forestry sector, but also the responsibility of forestry companies to create these sustainable jobs. We are asking the government, the employees, of course, but also the industry, to develop a long-term vision in order to have a sustainable industry.

Do you feel that the Government of Quebec has a clear vision of the future for the forestry sector that is rooted in sustainable development?

12:35 p.m.

President, Centrale des syndicats démocratiques

Luc Vachon

You are asking me whether I feel that Quebec has a clear vision. If, in fact, it has one, it is bad at sharing it. It doesn't communicate it. It's still a closely guarded secret.

From the discussions I've had with business leaders, you're absolutely right that people in the industry know that they're going to have to be involved in the transformation and the transition. They're willing to do that. If anyone could come up with a long-term vision and plan, they are prepared to commit. They're ready. They know they have to do their homework.

For the moment, we are capable of having public discussions with a variety of stakeholders to pool ideas. That said, I haven't seen a lot of that.

Sophie Chatel Liberal Pontiac, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Vachon.

I would now like to turn to Mr. St‑Laurent.

In all the public debates we have, one of the important things is not to bury our heads in the sand.

I was listening to our Conservative colleagues, whose rhetoric was very focused on short-term measures. However, that does not take into account the greater impact on our biodiversity and, in fact, our country's economic future.

You used a metaphor, that we have one planet and there is a circle around it. At the centre is our planet and its health, and from that we can build an economy. You can't build an economy without the centre.

Can you elaborate on that analogy?

12:35 p.m.

Full Professor of Animal Ecology, Université du Québec à Rimouski, As an Individual

Prof. Martin-Hugues St-Laurent

This analogy is simply the framework for sustainable development.

As conceived, sustainable development is an environmental circle. Inside the circle, we want societies to prosper so that people can live their lives with dignity; and inside this circle, there's the economic circle. As we ensure that we have societies that live with dignity in a healthy environment, we can create wealth. By placing this in a triangle, conversely, we always have to find a compromise for jobs, for the economy relative to the environment.

Does this lead us to a win-win situation? The answer is that it leads us to the erosion of biodiversity that we're seeing now.

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you very much.

We'll conclude the second hour on that.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for agreeing to be with us to contribute to this debate. It's been very interesting, I must say.

We'll take a short break to welcome the final panel of the day.

Again, I want to thank the witnesses.

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

We're back for our third and last panel.

Thank you to the panellists for agreeing to be with us today.

We have with us, as an individual, Mr. Louis Bélanger, who is a retired professor of sustainable forest management, faculty of forestry, Université Laval.

We also welcome Mr. Luis Calzado, general manager of the Association québécoise de la production d'énergie renouvelable.

From the David Suzuki Foundation we have Rachel Plotkin, boreal project manager.

You each have five minutes to make your opening statements.

We start right away with Monsieur Bélanger.

Louis Bélanger Professor (Retired), Sustainable Forest Management, Faculty of forestry, Laval University, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen members of the committee, I'd like to say hello, and thank you for this opportunity to meet with you.

I am a biologist and forest engineer, and also a professor of integrated forest management at Université Laval. I'm a member of the Équipe de rétablissement du caribou forestier du Québec, where I represent Nature Québec. I was also a member of the now-defunct Table nationale des partenaires, whose mandate was to implement Quebec's action plan for boreal caribou.

It is in this capacity that I would like to make two recommendations. One concerns the Charlevoix caribou herd, the other the Pipmuacan herd. Both are herds I know well.

In the case of the Charlevoix caribou, I ardently recommend that the Minister of the Environment and Climate Change, Mr. Guilbault, not include the Charlevoix caribou in his emergency order. I make this recommendation because Quebec has just tabled a project that fully addresses the minister's concerns about imminent threats to the survival of this population.

Because of the particular history of the Charlevoix caribou, a strategy to restore its habitat has been implemented for 15 years. This has been done in consultation with all stakeholders in the region, including the Huron-Wendat Nation and the forestry industry. In 2008, major economic repercussions were felt by the region. Charlevoix's forestry potential was cut by 35%. I repeat, 35%. In 2022, this strategy was improved and presented again by the Independent Commission on Woodland and Mountain Caribou. Once again, it received the unanimous support of the region's stakeholders. The pilot project, tabled last May by the Quebec Ministry of the Environment, the Fight against Climate Change, Wildlife and Parks, along with a draft regulation, finalizes this long regional process.

Unfortunately, the Canadian government's emergency order completely disregards these 15 years of efforts in Charlevoix. The order shifts conservation efforts completely westward, to the regional county municipality of Portneuf. In its present form, the order will impose a second wave of forestry cutbacks on the region, for unclear and questionable gains for the caribou.

On this basis, the wisest decision would be to let the Quebec pilot project come to fruition. Such a decision would demonstrate that Minister Guilbault is sincere when he says he intends to collaborate with the Quebec government.

The case of the Pipmuacan caribou is quite different. We know that, since 2021, certain high-ranking authorities at the Ministry of Natural Resources and Forests of Quebec have been blocking any transparent dialogue aimed at finding measures to mitigate the economic impact of the Pipmuacan caribou plan. In fact, in 2021, they let the national table of partners die. What's more, contrary to what was set out in the government's 2016 action plan, optimization measures to establish a balanced conservation plan were not presented to the public. For example, the systematic examination of alternative wood supply sources for the affected mills has not been done. Yet forestry workers' unions have been calling for some time for a form of impact mutualization through the introduction of a compensation system between mills.

Unfortunately, the population of Sacré‑Coeur, the Innu communities and the Pipmuacan caribou are being held hostage by Quebec's refusal to seek economic impact mitigation measures. The Quebec government has not made efforts to find a balanced solution, and there is no indication that the Ministry of Natural Resources and Forests intends to do so. Some may be hoping that, in the face of Sacré‑Coeur's predicted economic tragedy, all efforts to conserve the Pipmuacan caribou habitat will be abandoned.

So, what can be done? One solution would be to set up an independent technical commission with a mandate to conduct a detailed analysis of all alternative options for mitigating the drop in supply to the affected mills, and to report back to the public. To this end, I appeal to the governments of Quebec and Canada.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you, Professor Bélanger.

It's now Mr. Calzado's turn, from the Association québécoise de la production d'énergie renouvelable.

Luis Calzado Chief Executive Officer, Association québécoise de la production d'énergie renouvelable

Good morning, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the committee for its invitation.

For 30 years, the Association québécoise de la production d'énergie renouvelable, AQPER, has brought together all stakeholders in the renewable energy sector, including those in the wind power and bioenergy sectors.

Our members have demonstrated their commitment to protecting biodiversity by adopting practices that minimize the environmental impact of their projects. At the same time, meeting our climate objectives and the transition to carbon neutrality will require a considerable increase in our production capacity, particularly in the wind and bioenergy sectors. Some of the areas affected by the order have strong wind power potential, and the proposed restrictions could block future developments. This could hinder Quebec's energy transition and compromise our climate objectives.

Think of the Pipmuacan area, identified as requiring increased intervention for caribou protection. It also has great wind power potential. The restrictions imposed by the order could jeopardize future development opportunities. In addition, certain provisional zones could enclose territories with high wind energy potential outside them, making it difficult to develop new projects.

The AQPER is particularly concerned about the lack of corridors allowing the passage of power lines for future wind projects located on the north shore. The accessibility of several sites with good wind power potential would be compromised if new power lines, from Micoua and Les Outardes to substations to the south, cannot be developed.

We propose an impact reduction approach focused on avoidance, minimization and, ultimately, compensation. In the case of the 735‑kilovolt Micoua-Saguenay line, for example, Hydro-Québec installed specially adapted towers to allow caribou to pass under the lines, demonstrating the feasibility of concrete measures to reconcile energy development and wildlife protection. Sustainably managed forest biomass is a key player in the fight against climate change, and the proposed restrictions could hamper efforts to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. In fact, a forest harvested in accordance with sustainable management principles has a high carbon sequestration capacity.

AQPER therefore recommends excluding wind power projects and bioenergy projects using residual forest biomass from the list of activities potentially prohibited by the order.

AQPER considers that flexibility should be introduced into the emergency order and the application of its restrictions, in order to take into account the specificities of each project. The territories covered by the potential emergency order are vast and do not present a uniform level of disturbance. Some areas are already highly disturbed and could offer prime locations for wind project development.

AQPER recommends integrated solutions for boreal caribou conservation and renewable energy project development. These projects can include specific conservation measures, such as habitat restoration and the establishment of ecological corridors, to reduce the fragmentation of caribou habitat.

Finally, we want the restrictions imposed by the order to be flexible and to take future projects into account, while ensuring that they are carried out in consultation with indigenous and local communities. A flexible, collaborative approach would not only protect the boreal caribou, but also enable us to continue developing renewable energy projects that will benefit everyone today and, above all, future generations.

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you very much, Mr. Calzado.

The next speaker is Ms. Rachel Plotkin, director of the David Suzuki Foundation's boreal project.

Ms. Plotkin, you have the floor for five minutes.

Rachel Plotkin Boreal Project Manager, David Suzuki Foundation

Good afternoon, and thank you for the opportunity to appear before the committee today. My name is Rachel Plotkin. I'm the boreal program manager for the David Suzuki Foundation. I've been working to protect at-risk species for over 20 years, with a focus on boreal caribou for almost 20 years.

I actually spent a lot of time here on Parliament Hill when the Species at Risk Act, SARA, was being developed, and I appeared before the environment committee for the five-year review of the act—I'm not sure whether the chair remembers me. When the SARA was being drafted and debated, I witnessed a sincere belief across parties that it was an important tool in the tool box to protect biodiversity. A significant amount of time was spent debating the emergency order, but there was recognition that, while provinces make the majority of decisions about lands and wildlife under normal circumstances, the extirpation of a species is an issue of national importance. I was also part of the petition to invoke the emergency order for sage grouse in Alberta and Saskatchewan in 2011, an emergency habitat protection order that was ultimately passed by a Conservative government, even though there were economic impacts, and which resulted in pivoting the sage grouse towards recovery.

I have to say that working to protect boreal caribou and their habitat for the last 20 years has been pretty depressing. As the federal recovery strategy progress assessments illustrate, caribou habitat has continued to be degraded year after year, and caribou populations have continued to decline.

I listened to the other committee hearings and frequently heard the word “balance” mentioned as a framework for solutions. Since you guys like metaphors, this is my analogy of how “balance” can be problematic. Imagine it's the year 2000. You have 100 hectares of caribou habitat, and there's also industrial pressure, so the government of the day says, “Okay, we're going to balance these interests. We'll give 50 hectares to caribou and 50 to industry.” Then, five years later, there's another government and there are still industrial pressures. There are 50 hectares of caribou habitat. The government of the day says, “Okay, let's balance this,” so then there are 25 hectares for caribou and 25 for industry. That continues to play out, and that's why we end up where we are now, that the Charlevoix herd has less than 17% of its habitat that's undisturbed, and the province continues to approve industrial resource extraction in their range. We know that caribou need a minimum of 65% of their habitat to be undisturbed in order for them to have a 60% probability of persistence.

Many are positioning the protection order as a jobs vs. caribou narrative. If the emergency order is implemented, it will affect some jobs, at least in the short term, but really, this conversation is about unsustainable forest management and how to better manage forests in Quebec for both wildlife and people's livelihoods. As was mentioned by others in this hearing, in the long term these two things go hand in hand. If forests are to be relied upon to provide employment security and not be subject to boom-and-bust cycles, they must be managed sustainably.

At heart, the fact that logging is driving caribou towards extinction in Quebec is glaring evidence that logging, at present, is not sustainable. Forest mismanagement is not unique to Quebec. In B.C. the forestry industry is running out of trees to log because the bigger, older trees near mills have already been logged, and replanted trees haven't matured to take their place. The push to keep mills open in the short term has resulted in serious long-term impacts. Studies show that logging in Quebec is also significantly diminishing the natural levels of old-growth forests. At present, caribou aren't even really taken into consideration in forest management planning.

As it happens, the drive for change to the status quo is shared beyond conservation organizations. Listen to these quotes from a press release put out by forest industry unions in Quebec last week, which joined forces to denounce the Quebec government's inaction. They state that Quebec's “inaction and attitude are exacerbating the situation and turning workers into an instrument of political discord”, and they implore the Quebec government “to take the issue seriously and implement an organized, smart plan, to protect woodland caribou, ensure a sustainable future for the forestry industry and adequately support the workers who make it prosper”. In plain words, only forests managed for ecological resilience can provide resilience to forest-dependent workers.

Healthy forests also support indigenous people. Indigenous rights, cultures and ways of life are at stake if caribou become extirpated. I want to share a message from my Innu colleague Melissa Mollen-Dupuis, from Ekuanitshit. She wonders where all the jobs are going to be when they cut down the forest. These arguments have always been used, she says. Jobs were used to justify putting indigenous people in reservations and caribou in enclosures. She also says that one thing is certain: In their lifetime, her kids will never know the taste of caribou or the smell of smoked leather.

I echo my colleagues who already came before you and articulated that band-aid solutions—like killing wolves, which co-evolved with caribou for thousands of years, or putting caribou in fences that essentially turn them into zoo animals—are not real solutions to the current biodiversity crisis and fly in the face of the global biodiversity framework agreed to in Montreal in 2022.

The good news on this depressing file is that you've heard from all sectors and first nations that a reset for forest management is necessary, and there are solutions at hand. If there's—

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Thank you. The time is up. I'm sorry. There will be time to share your ideas in responses to questions.

Before we start the first round, I'd like to tell you that, in order to finish on time, we're going to proceed with five-minute turns during the first round and with three-minute turns during the second round, as we did with the previous two panels.

Mr. Martel, you have the floor.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Richard Martel Conservative Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Once again, I thank the witnesses for making themselves available today.

Mr. Calzado, to access the territories that are coveted to produce renewable energy, do you use the infrastructures put in place by the forest industry?

September 16th, 2024 / 12:55 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Association québécoise de la production d'énergie renouvelable

Luis Calzado

Good afternoon. Thank you very much for your question.

Our goal is to use the roads that are already built, to cohabit with endangered species and to promote the energy transition without disturbing the current ecosystem. So, we're trying to use the existing roads and cohabit with the boreal caribou while installing the wind turbines.

1 p.m.

Conservative

Richard Martel Conservative Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

If roads were closed, would the absence of the forest industry put your projects at risk?

1 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Association québécoise de la production d'énergie renouvelable

Luis Calzado

As I mentioned earlier, we give priority to areas that are already disturbed. Then we carry out analyses and studies to determine the best way of carrying out the projects while cohabiting with the endangered species. Indeed, if we can't access the places where the wind turbines are to be installed, we run the risk of not being able to achieve the energy transition.

That said, we obviously carry out analyses and studies before launching projects, to make sure, on the one hand, that there is already enough wind and, on the other, that there will be no repercussions on the ecosystem.

1 p.m.

Conservative

Richard Martel Conservative Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

A question immediately comes to mind.

How can biomass be excluded from the order without the input of the forest industry?

1 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Association québécoise de la production d'énergie renouvelable

Luis Calzado

As an association, AQPER promotes various channels. Firstly, if forest residues were not collected, this would have consequences in terms of greenhouse gas capture. Secondly, it could contribute to forest fires, which would have consequences for caribou in the long term.

For our part, we're looking to put these forest residues to good use, for example to produce biofuels that can be used in the energy transition. As we all know, the energy transition cannot be based on electrons alone. Bioenergy will also be needed for sectors that cannot be decarbonized using electricity.

1 p.m.

Conservative

Richard Martel Conservative Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

So, how do you see your industry developing under the threat of this order?

1 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Association québécoise de la production d'énergie renouvelable

Luis Calzado

It's going to have an impact. For example, the biofuel, biogas and biomass sectors could be affected because they could not contribute to this energy transition. Here again, our goal is to be part of the compromises that the government has made. If we want to reduce greenhouse gas emissions, all sectors need to be involved. I'm not just talking about sectors that work with electrons, namely, wind and solar, but also the bioenergy sectors, which also contribute to reducing greenhouse gas emissions.

1 p.m.

Conservative

Richard Martel Conservative Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC

Mr. Bélanger, can you guarantee me that, if caribou habitat isn't disturbed, it won't be harmed by climate change, forest fires or the spruce budworm?

1 p.m.

Professor (Retired), Sustainable Forest Management, Faculty of forestry, Laval University, As an Individual

Louis Bélanger

You're right, the caribou issue is one of disturbance, and that includes natural disturbances. The challenge is that the level of disturbance associated with the logging, in addition to natural disturbances, exceeds the tolerable threshold for caribou.

General forest rejuvenation is the big challenge, and it's also an economic one, by the way. As the union said, the economic value of Quebec's forest is declining because too much is being logged. When you add the fires to all of that, it really becomes a difficult issue.

1 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Mr. Bélanger, I have to stop you there, thank you.

Mr. van Koeverden.