Evidence of meeting #120 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was forest.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
I understand, but he will be able to answer at some other moment.
Mr. Boulerice, you have the floor.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Minister, thank you for being with us today for this important study.
This is the environment committee, so I will talk about the environment. You talked about a lot of important things during your opening remarks, such as biodiversity and climate change. I have before me a non-exhaustive list describing your government’s record on those matters.
Under the Liberal government, Canada has the worst record for reducing greenhouse gases among G7 member countries. Among all G20 members, Canada is the one that funds the oil and gas industry the most with public money. When the United Nations asked their member states to tax excessive oil and gas sector profits, lobbyists from that sector went to the finance minister’s office, and you backed down during the last budget.
We still do not have a greenhouse gas emissions cap for the oil and gas sector. The commissioner of the environment and sustainable development sounded the alarm about the fact that we cannot trust your plan to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. There are so many loopholes in it for big corporations that companies like Suncor pay a fourteenth of the carbon price than that paid by the average worker or average family.
Finally, as my colleague said, your government paid $34 billion to buy a pipeline. That pipeline was so useless, even the private sector didn’t want to take the risk of buying and expanding it.
We want to save the boreal caribou, but if we save them while the planet burns up and the forest around them burns down, what will we have accomplished?
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
Thank you for the question.
First, with all due respect, several things you said were incorrect. Between 2019 and 2022, we had the best record for greenhouse gas reductions among all G7 countries. We are the only G20 country that eliminated subsidies for fossil fuels. All G20 countries committed to doing so in Pittsburgh in 2009, but no other country did it. We committed to going further by ending public funding of the oil industry through government corporations, such as Export and Development Canada or the Business Development Bank of Canada. No other G20 country committed to doing so.
NDP
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
We said we would do it this year. It would’ve been faster if we had been able to keep working with you. It will take a little more time, but we are the only G20 country that committed to it.
As for our plan, the Canadian Climate Institute, an independent organization, highlighted that at the rate things are going, we will achieve our interim objective by 2026. That is a first in the history of the country. The last time greenhouse gas emissions were this low in Canada, O. J. Simpson was being tried and the iPhone had been invented, but was not yet on the market. That means our emissions haven’t been this low for 25 years.
Of course, we have to work on conservation. That is why, for instance, when it comes to marine and ocean conservation, we went from 1% in 2015 to 16%. We are on track to reach 30% by 2030. When it comes to land conservation, we are at about 15%. I am the first to recognize we must do more.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
You did more by offering the biggest subsidy ever granted to an oil and gas company and used taxpayer money to buy the Trans Mountain pipeline for $34 billion. The tax credit you give for carbon capture, an unproven technology, is also a huge subsidy. So, when you say you eliminated all subsidies to oil and gas companies, that is not true. You continue to do it, indirectly or directly, by giving the industry appalling loopholes for the carbon tax and by failing to set an emissions cap, which we are still desperately waiting for. We are now in 2024 and the Liberals have been in power since 2015.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Mr. Boulerice, we are supposed to be talking about caribou today.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Well, I like to talk about the forest, and when it burns down, there is a connection.
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Let’s come back to the forest.
Minister, the government of Quebec is dragging its feet. The caribou, which we really don’t want to see disappear, is at risk. Isn’t the fact you may ultimately be forced to impose an order a sign of failure regarding your ability to come to an agreement with the government of Quebec?
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
As I was saying earlier, we succeeded in coming to an agreement with several provincial governments on the caribou issue. I still hope we will be able to come to an agreement. Some talk about the order as though it were radical, or something like that. You probably heard about Mr. Martin‑Hugues St‑Laurent, a full professor in animal ecology at the University of Quebec in Rimouski. He said that under the glass dome, the order looks more like a compromise than a radical protection strategy. Also, despite the amount of evidence the scientific community broadly agrees on, many stakeholders invest significant effort in blowing a wind of disinformation and denial over science in the media. It contributes to the social polarization we see on the issue.
If more people tried to find a solution, and fewer people tried to fan the flames of disinformation and fear campaigns, we would probably make more progress.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
I am sensitive to the heartfelt outcry from local communities, the forest industry and unionized workers, as well as to the fact we had to come to a decree to preserve a threatened species. If the boreal caribou disappears, we won’t be able to bring it back. We are not in Jurassic Park.
What consultations did you hold with indigenous communities? For them, the caribou is an important symbol, as well as a significant part of their identity and way of life.
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
We don’t have a lot of time left, but I could inform the committee of the number of meetings we held and the number of briefs tabled by stakeholders in the forestry, mining and tourism sectors, by municipalities, by workers and by first nations. We met with hundreds of people.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Thank you.
We are moving on to the second round.
Mr. Paul‑Hus, you have the floor.
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Hello, Minister.
I also greet the other two witnesses.
Minister, you said earlier that people describe your order as radical. We are the ones who clearly stated that the threat of your order was radical, because there is no balance in the proposed approach. You decided to impose an order that will imperil dozens of businesses and thousands of jobs.
I would like to know what discussions you had with the leader of the Bloc Quebecois, Mr. Blanchet, on the caribou file. We know that there was a very good relationship between your two parties.
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
First, I profoundly disagree with the way you characterized the order. It is no more radical than the one the Conservative Party, under Stephen Harper, issued in 2013 for another species. It is the same process.
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
Your approach is radical, but I want to know what discussions you had with Mr. Blanchet.
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
I think what I am about to say will make many people smile: If my approach is radical, that means the Conservative Party of Canada is radical when it comes to the environment. I am not sure we want to go there.
Conservative
Pierre Paul-Hus Conservative Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC
I'm speaking about the relationship with Mr. Blanchet. What about the caribou protection order did you discuss with him?
Liberal
Steven Guilbeault Liberal Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC
I had a discussion with the Bloc Québécois leader in June, if my memory serves me. It was a discussion over the telephone lasting a few minutes.
