Evidence of meeting #124 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fires.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Monique Pauzé Bloc Repentigny, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair. Does Mr. Messier have any studies or documents to give the committee so that we, as elected representatives, can bring more pressure to bear?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
That is noted, Ms. Pauzé.
The floor is now yours for two minutes, Ms. Collins.
NDP
Laurel Collins NDP Victoria, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Flannigan, in your research you talk about how fire management policies and effectiveness will continue to change. Can you talk a bit about what the government needs to do and what actions need to be taken in order to prevent wildfires in the future?
BC Innovation Research Chair, Predictive Services, Emergency Management and Fire Science, As an Individual
As a quick aside, there needs to be an independent and complete review of the Jasper fire. In large part, what happened was a result of a pyrocumulonimbus, a fire-generated thunderstorm. This is the most intense display of Mother Nature's energy, in terms of the fire world, and that, in large part, was the reason that we lost a third of the town.
What can we do? There is, as mentioned, FireSmart. Jasper is at the confluence of three valleys, a high-risk location: Valleys act as corridors, wicks and pathways. They knew it was a high-risk location and they had been doing a lot of work, but those embers can travel kilometres: The West Kelowna fire jumped over Okanagan Lake in 2023.
These are three ingredients: vegetation, ignition and weather. Let's say we can't do anything about climate change and extreme weather. Okay, fine, we can't do anything about lightning and weather ignitions.
People cause fires; we can and are doing things on that front.
Then, the last thing is the vegetation. Managing vegetation in high-risk areas and around high-risk communities will help reduce the likelihood of extreme and catastrophic fire, but will never eliminate it. When things are extreme, as long as there's stuff to burn, even if it is leafy, like aspen—in Fort McMurray, we're surrounded by aspen and we saw what happened there—fuel is fuel is fuel, unfortunately: It burns and can burn at a fairly high intensity, even if it's not a conifer.
Liberal
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I will start with Mr. Liivam.
You mentioned in your opening remarks that Parks Canada—
Liberal
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
Unfortunately, the interpreters can't interpret him. You could still ask him to submit something in writing if you wish, or make a statement, but he cannot—
Conservative
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
Okay. I will ask Mr. Liivam to answer in writing if it is possible.
Mr. Liivam, you said in your opening remarks that Parks Canada ordered hydrants for Jasper Park that were different from all of the rest in B.C. and Alberta, and you had only seven adapters that could be used on a moment's notice. This is shocking evidence that Parks Canada officials certainly didn't say last week. Minister Guilbeault and Minister Sajjan certainly made no mention of that.
What was the impact of that failure to order aligned fittings for hydrants? Please provide that in writing to this committee.
You also mentioned that you were threatened with arrest or removal, multiple times. Could you further identify what those instances were? Do you know which officials with Parks Canada decided to intentionally turn away 20 trucks and over 50 firefighters? They were well-trained firefighters, and not only were they turned away but they were turned away with the apparent threat of force. Please provide a little bit more detail to the committee on that.
Also, as an expert who works regularly in the field on the ground, please provide a little bit of context as to whether or not, in your view, prescribed burns and mechanical removal are effective tools to mitigate the potential heat sources and damage caused by wildfires, particularly the one in Jasper. In your expert opinion, was enough of that done by Parks Canada to prevent that fire from happening?
Lastly, in your view, was Parks Canada in fact negligent in its responsibilities, leading to the disastrous fire in Jasper?
If you could do all that, I would appreciate that.
I'll move back to Mr. Messier.
You mentioned an increase in pests. How is the transmission of pests happening in our forests?
Professor of Forest Ecology, As an Individual
I was part of a national committee and I can send you the report.
We are doing a lot of trade with Europe, the U.S., Asia and China. Interestingly enough, they have the same kind of climate and the same type of trees. The risk of bringing in insects and pests from these areas is very high. We are doing that almost every day.
That's actually one of the clear problems. It is that we are trading with regions of the world that have similar species, and there is a risk of bringing in species that the trees have have adapted to in the original country, but here, they have not adapted. This is what's happening, and it's increasing.
Conservative
Branden Leslie Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
Thank you, Mr. Messier.
I want to give the rest of my time to Mr. Deltell.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
Thank you for your very practical approach, Mr. Messier. You take a concrete view of matters that is very impressive. Earlier, you heard the firefighter's testimony, as did we. I saw that you were listening very closely to what he said. Can you share your feelings about that?
October 7th, 2024 / 12:15 p.m.
Professor of Forest Ecology, As an Individual
In fact, that is quite a ways outside my field. I have to say I was surprised to learn that people might not have had all the firefighting resources available. I imagine there are structural problems in the way various kinds of organizations are managed, but I really can't say more than that.
Conservative
Gérard Deltell Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
You were completely surprised and outraged, as were we, to see that firefighters were ready to act but were told to go home.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia
We have gone over four minutes.
The floor is yours, Ms. Taylor Roy.
Liberal
Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to all the witnesses.
I realize, Mr. Liivam, that you can't respond, but for the record, I was hoping that you could verify for us that your company is a for-profit company, that it's not volunteer, and that you were on the ground hired by insurance companies or contractors.
You mentioned that you don't understand why private or independent firefighters are not allowed to come in and fight the fires and why there is legislation preventing that. Do you really believe that allowing independent firefighters, who may be hired by multiple different sources, to come in and do what they want to do in the area when there is a major fire like this going on would be safe and would lead to a coordinated effort? Perhaps you could answer those questions for me in writing.
The other question I have is for Mr. Messier and for Mr. Flannigan.
We have two different conversations going on. One is really about what exactly happened in Jasper. I believe that the firefighters did an amazing job. They collaborated, and we've had plenty of witnesses from all parties on what was done beforehand to prepare for this fire.
Mr. Flannigan, I believe you said that fire-smarting was important—doing the burns, mechanical clearing, etc. You said that you felt that they had done a good job. Now, I understand that they could do more, given the conditions now.
There has also been a notion introduced that because forest fires are still happening, somehow our efforts to reduce emissions have failed, that even though we've bent the curve on bringing emissions down, forest fires are still happening, so it's not worth it. I was wondering if you could comment on that in the larger picture when you're talking about what's happening to our forests and on whether that's a fair assessment.
Professor of Forest Ecology, As an Individual
Do you want me or Mr. Flannigan to start?
Liberal
Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Mr. Flannigan, I think you've had fewer questions, so—
BC Innovation Research Chair, Predictive Services, Emergency Management and Fire Science, As an Individual
Emissions due to forest fires were 647 teragrams, approximately, according to a new study, which is about the size of India's fossil fuel emissions. Our forests have become carbon sources due to fire and insects, and I don't see that changing in the short term as we continue with climate change.
However, the international agreement on reporting of emissions is for a managed forest fire. That greatly reduces the international reporting. To be honest, the atmosphere doesn't care if the fire is burning in a managed forest or an unmanaged forest. It's still emitting greenhouse gases into the atmosphere.
Liberal
Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON
Absolutely.
Given that forest fires are still happening, do you believe that a price-on-pollution program is necessary and that it can be working to reduce emissions, but that forest fires could still be happening? Is that possible?