Evidence of meeting #124 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fires.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Christian Messier  Professor of Forest Ecology, As an Individual
Kristopher Liivam  Canadian Registered Safety Professional and President, Arctic Fire Safety Services Limited
Mike Flannigan  BC Innovation Research Chair, Predictive Services, Emergency Management and Fire Science, As an Individual
Elizabeth Potter  President and Chief Executive Officer, Tourism Industry Association of Canada
Lori Daniels  Koerner Chair, Wildfire Coexistence, Forestry, University of British Columbia, As an Individual
James Gault  Vice-President, North East Region, Alberta Union of Provincial Employees
Kate Lindsay  Senior Vice President and Chief Sustainability Officer, Forest Products Association of Canada
Mike Ellis  Deputy Premier and Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Services, Government of Alberta

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Good morning, everyone, and welcome to meeting number 124 of the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development.

I want to welcome all the members and witnesses who are in the room and all those who are joining us via Zoom.

Today, we are continuing our study of the factors leading to the recent fires in Jasper National Park.

For the witnesses who are online, if you do not have the floor, please keep your microphone on mute.

For the witnesses who are in the room. would you please, to avoid accidents—

11 a.m.

Conservative

Gerald Soroka Conservative Yellowhead, AB

I have a point of order.

We're not getting any translation.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Is that working? Can you hear me in English now?

11 a.m.

Conservative

Blaine Calkins Conservative Red Deer—Lacombe, AB

I'm on the English channel and all I hear is your voice.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Can people hear me in French?

I guess we're waiting to get connected in some way.

Can you hear me?

An hon. member

No.

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

We'll take a little pause.

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Resuming the meeting.

We are here to continue our study of the factors leading to the recent fires in Jasper National Park.

If you are online and you do not have the floor, we ask that you put your microphone on mute. If you are here in the room—I say this mainly for the witnesses because all of the members are aware of it—be careful not to be too close to the mike when you're speaking and not to touch the boom. If you want to remove your earpiece, I would ask you to please put it on the round sticker in front of you. We are doing all of this so as not to hurt the interpreters, out of respect for them.

Without further ado, we will welcome our first panel. With us are Mike Flannigan, BC Innovation research chair, predictive services, emergency management and fire science, and Christian Messier, professor of forest ecology, who are both appearing as individuals.

From Arctic Fire Safety Services Limited, we have president and Canadian registered safety professional Kristopher Liivam, and from the Tourism Industry Association of Canada, we have Elizabeth Potter, president and chief executive officer.

Each witness will get five minutes for an opening statement. We'll start with Mr. Flannigan, who's online, I believe.

Mr. Flannigan, go ahead. You have five minutes.

Your mic seems to be on, so that's no problem. Could you say a few words?

Can you hear me? Give me a thumbs up if you can hear me.

No.

Let's go to Mr. Christian Messier, then.

Dr. Christian Messier, professor of forestry ecology, the floor is yours for five minutes.

Christian Messier Professor of Forest Ecology, As an Individual

Good morning, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. It is a pleasure to be here today. Thank you for inviting me.

The mega-fires that occurred in Jasper in 2024 were no accident; they resulted from a combination of anthropomorphic factors both inside and outside the park. The fact is that over the last 100 years there has been constant human intervention in the national parks and in many forests near population centres. While this intervention was intended to put out the fires that would normally have affected those forests, it prevented forest rejuvenation and the emergence of pioneer species such as poplar and birch that are more tolerant or reduce the risk of fire.

The reason for this human intervention is simple and is the same everywhere: to preserve glorious natural scenery and limit disruption. Doing this, however, tends to raise the average age of the trees and the number of dead trees and shade-tolerant conifers such as fir and spruce, which are often found in undergrowth and allow fire to climb from the surface to the canopy. It is common knowledge that these three factors increase the risk of fire.

Another important point is that because the climate is warming rapidly and Jasper is located at a high latitude in the northern hemisphere, where warming is more marked, the risk of conditions occurring that are conducive to mega-fires is rising. These include early hot, dry springs and the presence of fuel such as dead wood and softwood, along with the hot, dry summers with frequent thunderstorms that we are increasingly seeing.

In fact, some researchers had predicted what happened in Jasper. A number of scientific articles had been published pointing out that these kinds of fires were inevitable, since they are caused by the gradual degradation of our forests and rising tree mortality. This is something that is occurring not just in Canada, but all over the world. In fact, some scientists predict that with accelerated climate change, the number of fires will rise so much in the next 50 years that there is a risk that forests will emit as much carbon annually as all human activity in Canada combined. This means that even if human activities stopped emitting carbon, forest fires and the rise in tree mortality might result in just as much being emitted in the next 30 to 50 years.

I realize that the purpose of today's meeting is to understand the factors leading to the fires in Jasper National Park. However, I would like to speak more generally about the risk of major disruptions in our forests associated with global warming and the increasing introduction of exotic insects and diseases that are killing more and more tree species. Another important point is that our trees are becoming less and less adapted to the new climate conditions, which leads to a loss of vigour and makes them more vulnerable to insects and diseases that should not affect them in normal circumstances.

Climate change is accelerating to the point that some tree species are now outside what is called their normal climate envelope, leading to a loss of vigour on the part of these trees and to forest degradation. This heightens the risk of fire and increases carbon emissions from our forests, makes our forest industry more precarious, and increases the risk of losing biodiversity and all the services that forests provide us. It is important to point out that in the last decade, Canada's forest has emitted more carbon than it absorbs, and this contributes to the earth's warming.

So what can we do? Here are some suggestions.

First, we should encourage diversification of tree species that have varying functional characteristics and are capable of resisting all sorts of disruptions, just as we do by diversifying our pension fund investments in order to reduce risk and guarantee acceptable returns in the future.

We must also not routinely prevent the small disruptions that occur, such as small fires. In fact, we should even be carrying out controlled burning, to keep fuel load low and reduce the proportion of conifers.

Second, a systematic assessment of our forests' vulnerability to insects, diseases and fires needs to be done in all regions of Canada, so that forest management can be used to try to reduce these risks.

Third, we should also increase the speed at which our forests adapt to climate change and insects, by encouraging what is called the assisted migration of tree species: migration initiated by human intervention to bring species that are more southern to the north—

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

I have to stop you there, but you will have an opportunity to add comments during the question period.

Mr. Flannigan, can you hear me now? No.

Mr. Liivam, I believe if you raise the mic, we might be able to hear you better. Why don't we try now for five minutes?

Kristopher Liivam Canadian Registered Safety Professional and President, Arctic Fire Safety Services Limited

Okay. I can hear you. Can you hear me?

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

That's fine. The sound quality isn't good enough, but we can hear you.

11:20 a.m.

Canadian Registered Safety Professional and President, Arctic Fire Safety Services Limited

Kristopher Liivam

Okay [Technical Difficulties—Editor]

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Just a moment, please.

Could you bring the boom up? I can't see where the boom is. That should be okay, actually.

Shall we try again? Could you take it from the top, Mr. Liivam?

11:20 a.m.

Canadian Registered Safety Professional and President, Arctic Fire Safety Services Limited

Kristopher Liivam

Mr. Chair and committee members, the statement that I provide today will provide a shocking example of how mismanaged the Jasper fire was by Parks Canada and should warrant a deeper investigation into this agency's fire management and overall role as guardians of Canada's most important cultural and natural assets.

On the evening of Tuesday, July 23, 2024, Arctic Fire Safety Services was contacted by the Alberta Emergency Management Agency to deploy three type 3 fire engines and 11 firefighters to Jasper National Park. The request was later changed to two type 3 engines to Jasper and one to another fire.

The crews travelled up from Eckville by Highway 93 to Jasper. As well, some crews came in from Fort McMurray by Highway 16. We were informed that the crew were to bring tents and sleeping bags because there were no hotel rooms available for us in Jasper, so the crew had to sleep on the lawn of the Jasper fire hall for two nights.

On the night of July 24, in a verbal report, my crew informed me of numerous issues that occurred that affected the ability of firefighters to protect Jasper.

There was a back-burn that was under way by Parks Canada, and the status of the back-burn did not appear to be communicated to the structure protection specialist who was in Jasper from the ignition team with Parks Canada. All fire crews were sitting at the Jasper fire hall and were not at their preplanned positions when the main fire entered Jasper because they believed the fire behaviour observed was from the back-burn. It was not until reports that the buildings were on fire that fire crews deployed to save the townsite. The scene was described as extremely chaotic—

Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

Mr. Chair—

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Go ahead, Ms. Taylor Roy.

Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

I'm actually having difficulty hearing him in English here.

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Pardon?

Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

I'm having difficulty hearing this.

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Yes, I am too.

Leah Taylor Roy Liberal Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON

Yes, okay.

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Ms. Pauzé, are you hearing the interpreters when Mr. Liivam speaks?

October 7th, 2024 / 11:20 a.m.

Canadian Registered Safety Professional and President, Arctic Fire Safety Services Limited

Kristopher Liivam

I don't understand French.

The Chair Liberal Francis Scarpaleggia

Ms. Pauzé is indicating that everything is fine.

It seems to be the English that we have trouble understanding here in the room.

Please continue, Mr. Liivam, and maybe speak a bit more slowly.

Go ahead, Mr. Longfield.