Environment Committee on April 28th, 2022

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm very pleased to see that the representatives of Natural Resources Canada are here. My questions will be addressed directly to them.

I'm going to start with a little joke. An accounting firm wants to hire some employees. They ask the first applicant what one plus one makes. He answers that it makes two. He doesn't get hired. The second applicant answers that it may make two, but it may also make something else. He also doesn't get hired. The third applicant answers the question by saying: "What do you want it to make?" He's the one who gets hired.

I think that this is exactly how the Department of Natural Resources sometimes acts. They ask what figure they need to get and they set about getting it.

It seems to me that more and more observations cast doubt on the integrity of some of the department's work.

So I'm asking the question again that I asked the commissioner earlier.

Do you think that changing the figures means that the credibility of your hydrogen strategy can be maintained?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Who would like to answer for the department?

Mr. Labelle, you have the floor.

[Sébastien Labelle, Director General, Clean Fuels Branch, Department of Natural Resources]

Thank you very much for the question.

I would first like to point out that the Hydrogen Strategy for Canada is not a plan. It doesn't contain any programs. It is really a call to action, to consider the opportunities that hydrogen could create for the Canadian economy.

In fact, the document we produced, after three years of consultations with the private sector, academia and the provinces is not a federal government document.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I'm going to interrupt you, Mr. Labelle, because I have already read the Hydrogen Strategy for Canada.

Did you take into account the way that hydrogen is produced? We know that hydrogen is colour-coded based on the method used to produce it. Hydrogen can be produced from fossil fuel energy, from natural gas, or from nuclear energy. Green hydrogen can also be extracted from renewable forms of energy.

We have to understand that green hydrogen is the only one that doesn't produce greenhouse gas.

Was this taken into account?

[Sébastien Labelle]

It was taken into account. We examined a whole range of technologies that are constantly evolving. For carbon capture, we analyzed all the processes. I could ask my colleague Mr. Hoskin to tell you more about it. However, I can tell you that the intensity of carbon emissions varies for all these technologies.

If you want, we can provide you with more details.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You can do that later perhaps, Mr. Labelle.

Ms. Collins, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you.

When it comes to the greening government strategy, Crown corporations aren't required to report on their emissions. It's voluntary. You found there isn't quality information on their emissions. Without that data, it may be hard to say how much of the overall emissions picture we're missing, but do you have a sense of how big that piece of the pie is that we're missing?

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Yes, we do. It's exhibit 2.3 of report number two. Crown corporations are the three big ones in terms of emissions, including Canada Post. We have an estimation of emissions being 1.28 megatonnes or 1,286 kilotonnes. That is in the report.

We have a sense of what they're emitting; we don't have a sense of what they're going to do to bring those emissions down.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thanks so much.

Mr. Chair, did you say I have a minute and a half?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

It's about that, yes.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Since it's been raised a couple of times, I circulated a motion in advance of this committee meeting.

Mr. DeMarco just said in response to Mr. Duguid's question that he would recommend that this committee pass a motion. It's a motion that the Standing Committee on Public Accounts has adopted since 2009. It requires audited organizations to provided a detailed action plan. I'm hoping we can pass a similar motion.

I would like to move it now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Give me one moment, please. I'm going to stop the clock.

[Jerry V. DeMarco]

Mr. Chair, I'd like to make sure that I have the statistics right from that exhibit I was looking at quickly. Crown corporations had 1,286 kilotonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent.

I'm sorry about that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

I'm stopping the clock for a second to deal with Ms. Collins' motion. The motion is being distributed in both official languages at the moment, for those who are on screen.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

While we are waiting, would you like me to read it out?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Sure.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

It says:

That all organizations that have been subject to a performance audit by the Commissioner of the Environment and Sustainable Development provide a detailed action plan to address the audit recommendations which have been agreed to—including specific actions, timelines for their completion and responsible individuals—to the committee and the commissioner within six months of the audit being tabled in the House of Commons

That organizations that are invited to appear before the committee to discuss the findings of an audit should provide an action plan to the committee no later than 48 hours prior to the hearing;

That action plans and progress reports received by the committee be published on the committee's website.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We're basically suspending the meeting to deal with this motion.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

I'm hoping we could pass it by unanimous consent very quickly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Is that your request?

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

That would be my request.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

What do members think?

Go ahead, Mr. Longfield.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

I think I would like to see the action plans. I sat on public accounts, and those were extremely helpful in knowing how the departments were going to be handling the recommendations they've agreed to.

In terms of committee time and saying that we want all the departments to come in and speak with us, I think that's a little bit of a separate issue. Maybe we could consider inviting people as we need to and as the committee agrees to.

Looking at our schedule going forward and saying that we're going to agree to all these departments that are now in front of us on the screen to come to talk to us might be jumping the gun a bit, but I definitely would like to see the reports of the action plans coming to us.

I would suggest an amendment to the motion, which is “that the committee consider inviting the departments as needed”.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Could you give me some language for that?

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

With the second part of the motion, “that organizations that are invited to appear before the committee”, I would take that around and say, “that the committee consider inviting organizations to discuss the findings”.