Environment Committee on Sept. 20th, 2022

[Vincent Moreau]

You’re ahead of me, because we have an ongoing project that I wanted to talk about: we want to create a decision support tool.

The problem is that an entrepreneur doesn’t know what’s out there when they’re looking for something. This kind of portal offers support based on their challenges and needs. It then directs them to the right technology tools, the right clean technologies and the right innovations, so they can take action faster.

When we create these types of tools at Écotech Québec, we always think about facilitating and accelerating the adoption of clean technologies. By facilitating these connections, we’re helping businesses to take part in the green transition and act immediately.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

We will now move on to Ms. Collins.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here.

A number of my questions were going to be directed towards Dr. Ross.

Maybe I will just read out a few of them so that you can send some answers in writing, Dr. Ross. I was looking forward to hearing from you in particular because it's so important that we support northern rural indigenous communities in the transition to clean energy and reducing diesel consumption.

This summer, I met with some amazing researchers who are doing projects in B.C. in supporting Canada's off-grid communities, the majority of which are indigenous. Those are focused on wind, tidal and wave energy—it's the Pacific Regional Institute for Marine Energy Discovery—and I would love to hear or at least get in writing a description of some of the socio-economic benefits of independent power production in northern and indigenous communities. How important could renewable energy be in the context of local economic development and benefits for rural indigenous communities?

Maybe I will direct a few questions to the other witnesses. There have been a number of really interesting comments.

First, maybe for you, Ms. Jackson, based on your experience, what do you see as the biggest barrier facing renewable energy and efficiency technologies in Canada?

[Jeanette Jackson]

Renewable energy.... Do you mean literally solar and wind? There is a broad spectrum of technologies that aren't as mature.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

I would say technologies that are going to get us to our goal of net zero.

[Jeanette Jackson]

On the wind and solar stuff, it's a capital problem and a commitment problem.

On some of the barriers, I think I'm going to echo what Mr. Moreau said. Thankfully, I was listening. It's really about the ability to have innovation sandboxes where regulatory and even capital structures to finance these types of projects are given a little bit more leniency, and again, even some education. A lot of the major consumers, including municipalities, aren't aware of how they can leapfrog by looking at a blend of different renewable sources so they can start to move the needle in that direction. It's education.

Also, it's policy. Permitting structures take too long: six months, 10 months or 12 months. By that time, someone is onto a new idea. Then, of course, it's education on what's possible, on what an actual energy structure to support that community can look like.

Those would be some of my comments.

I'm not sure if my colleague.... Say hi to Denis for me as well.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Mr. Moreau, I know that you previously answered this in part, but perhaps you have something to add.

[Vincent Moreau]

Yes, Ms. Jackson, I will say hello to Denis for you.

Another thing to consider with regard to energy transition is not just renewable energy forms, but also the whole aspect of energy efficiency. We consume a lot of energy in Canada. There are technologies that will increase our energy efficiency immediately, while others require investment and support, through accelerators, incubators or liaison organizations such as ours, to make sure they reach the companies that will then implement them.

So we must remember that energy efficiency is also part of the solution. It also depends on the public policies, requirements, regulations, rules and incentives that will be implemented, as well as follow‑up measures to evaluate the results.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Ms. Jackson, I really love your goal of Canada being the first G7 country. Can you give some examples internationally of countries that are doing it right? What could Canada be doing better in following some of those examples?

[Jeanette Jackson]

Sure. One example right out of the gate would be Denmark. They're usually one of the most prolific examples. They've just mandated renewables. They've mandated some reflection on future investments in projects that aren't on a pathway to net zero in infrastructure and other things like that.

When we do our cluster development strategies, a lot of regions have more consultation in place, so they give capacity that's like what Écotech is doing. We do that in different regions as well. You're bringing together the stakeholders in municipalities: What does your energy structure look like? What does your climate impact look like? How can we map out a pathway? Then you're bringing in those existing solutions or new technologies and bringing in the industry and the investors to actually invest and get those things going.

Some regions are effective in that. Quite frankly, Lytton is an interesting example now. Having to rebuild from ground zero, you're almost a blank canvas. You don't have all those other barriers. I think it will be interesting to watch them.

In South Africa, there is a really interesting government program to attract capital into projects. It's not just equity capital or debt capital but investing in projects that have a business case. They give sort of a kickback and a tax break based on the number of green jobs created and of course the actual calculated GHG reduction.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you very much. It's very interesting, but we have to move on to our second round.

Mr. Dreeshen, you have five minutes, please.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer—Mountain View, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all of the witnesses we have here today.

I know that Dr. Ross can't respond to this, but I did want to acknowledge some of the things he spoke about. He talked about power grids that are not always reliable, diesel fuel and the supplementation that is required, and different resources, of course, having different impacts. We've seen issues around the world, especially if we go back to the power grids in California, where there's a big push for electric vehicles but right now they're just trying to keep the lights on. These are issues that we have to be concerned about, and I just wanted to put that on the table. Perhaps, Dr. Ross, if you get a chance, you can address those things.

Second, Ms. Jackson, thank you very much for being here today. One of the things you spoke of was that you have 170 collaborators, I believe, who are working with your group via 35 staff. I'm interested in the types of groups that are working for you.

I say that from this particular context. It doesn't matter what we're trying to build and what clean technology we have; unless we measure it from the first shovel that we use to dig it up to the last shovel that we use to cover it up, we're not having a fair assessment. It doesn't matter whether it is hydro dams, windmills, solar panels, oil and gas, or hydrogen. All of these things have to be taken into consideration. Then we have to take a look at what the impacts of the CO2 issues are going to be, if that still remains one of the issues that we have.

I know that 170 is quite a few, but can you give me some of the highlights of the people who actually understand and realize that those are important metrics?

[Jeanette Jackson]

Yes, it's quite a list. We engage with folks in the ecosystem in a few different buckets. One would be policy leaders. We're not a policy expert group, but we work with folks like Clean Energy Canada, Pembina and all those groups to understand what they're putting forward, which will include finance tracking and metric counting, and standardizing that, if you will, across different industries. We work a lot with engineering firms, whose job is to quantify the impact of a project and whether it should be implemented, and to get more of an understanding of whether we can get them ahead with the clean-tech companies, so that they can help the clean-tech companies communicate what impact they can have that's validated and tangible for buyers.

On the municipality side, we do a lot of innovation matchmaking with municipalities, where they need support. It's something that I'm championing for a net-zero integrated marketplace where there are tried-and-true tested policy specifications and technologies that can be rapidly deployed. We can then work on that next funnel of technologies that aren't quite ready yet—

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer—Mountain View, AB]

If I can, I'll jump in there. One of the things I believe Mr. Seeback has spoken of is the gatekeepers we have in municipalities, because they haven't quite got their heads around how they want to have any kind of industry in their communities.

These are some of the things that concern me.

If you take, for example, building an electric vehicle battery, it's 1,000 pounds, and 500,000 pounds of earth has to be moved to make that happen. You don't do that unless you have hydrocarbons there to make that occur. That's what I'm speaking of when I say we need to measure all aspects of it, because some of these great ideas.... You know, I love science. I love the way it can be done, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it is going to get the results that we want. That's one of the parts.

The other concern that I have.... You mentioned forestry and how important it is, how it's able to change and find its way in the renewable industries. Agriculture is the same. It hasn't been mentioned. We fear that the measurements and the things that have happened in agriculture are not being considered. We know the whole concept of nitrogen fertilizer has nothing to do with anything other than the fact that it comes from natural gas. Therefore, if you want to cut down on the use of natural gas, you have some blanket statement that says we need to get rid of or reduce fertilizer.

Do you have agricultural groups in your collaboration network?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Answer in 10 seconds, please.

[Jeanette Jackson]

We have the AgriNext program. It's a national program in partnership with different associations across the country and farmers who are on the job, trying to figure out what the climate is going to look like for them. We're pulling information and looking at the ventures.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Excellent. Thank you.

Ms. Taylor Roy, you have five minutes.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here, Ms. Jackson. Thank you to our other guests for being here virtually.

I think it has been a great discussion. We've been in the weeds a lot, which is awesome to understand some of the details. However, I wanted to move back a bit, because it's been suggested by the leader of one of our parties that investing in clean tech alone will solve the climate crisis and that we don't need a price on pollution and we don't need regulation or anything else. All we need, really, is to increase clean tech.

While I agree that clean tech is vital for reaching net zero, I remember my grandmother always saying to me that necessity is the mother of invention. I'm wondering whether our witnesses today could comment on the supply and demand side balance between having the price on pollution and investing in clean tech.

What signal does it send to investors in clean tech when people hear questioning on whether a price on pollution or some of these regulations or mandates are necessary? What kind of impact does that have in this arena?

[Jeanette Jackson]

I'll go first.

The two things definitely lean on consumer behaviour. You're absolutely right. People make what people buy. I think we are missing an opportunity to educate consumers on their buying habits and consumption. Obviously, you can't control them, but education could go a long way.

In terms of investments—industry investments and other private capital investments—they're based on confidence in a market. The reality is that in 99.9% of cases, most VCs and large investors looking at that $130 trillion that's going to be deployed over the next 27 years are going to want to see confidence in the markets, confidence in policy, confidence in tax structures and confidence, at least for the time being, that carbon credits will be a factor in the business models that will allow them to invest.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

Is there anything else?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Go ahead, Mr. Moreau.

[Vincent Moreau]

If I may, I would like to add to what Ms. Jackson said.

Clean technologies are of course not the only solution to climate change. We also have to protect natural environments and change our consumption habits. It is clear though that we must adopt clean technologies.

The important point here is that all actions or approaches are relevant and complementary, including the carbon price signal, incentives offered through programs to reduce the environmental footprint and fight climate change, and changes in consumption habits.

Clean technologies alone cannot solve the whole climate change problem. It is clear, however, that today's finances are not tomorrow's finances. There is a climate risk. Shareholders or investors seek safety in this regard. For a company to remain profitable and viable in the future, it will have to adapt to this new reality. I am talking about ESG factors, that is, environmental, social and governance. Sustainable funding criteria will increasingly be integrated, sought out and guided by carbon price signals and other variables we have just discussed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Do you have another question?

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Yes. Thank you.

Earlier today, in fact, with some other members here, we were listening to the special trade envoy from New Zealand. On agriculture, she was talking about the fact that for farmers in New Zealand there were mandates put in place for reductions in methane, that they were getting absolutely no government assistance for any clean tech or anything else, and that they were very proud of the fact that they were undertaking these changes on their own and felt it was their responsibility to do this.

There are models where there are mandates and requirements or prices on pollution being put in place without the support. How important, though, do you think that support for clean tech is in reaching those targets?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Answer very briefly, please, as we have 10 seconds.