Environment Committee on Oct. 21st, 2022

[Ian Robertson]

The funding strategy that we are using is very similar to what was used in Vancouver, where the federal government and the provincial government equally shared 50% of the funding, and the cruise line industry contributed 50%. Specifically to your question, we've received a commitment from the provincial government to fund 25%, and we've received a funding strategy, a funding model, for the cruise lines to contribute 50%. We're just waiting on that last 25% from the federal government, and we're ready to go.

I hope that by providing this information to the committee, and specifically talking about the funding mechanism that was provided about 12 years ago for Vancouver to come online...would be made available to Victoria. Again, given our not-for-profit status, that is incredibly important. If we don't get the funding from the federal government, we're not able to move this project forward. It's as simple as that.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thanks so much.

I know the Greater Victoria Harbour Authority has been doing other work outside of shore power to become more environmentally friendly. Can you talk a little more about protecting our oceans, emissions reductions, etc.?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Fifteen seconds are all we have left, Mr. Robertson.

[Ian Robertson]

Our transportation provider has been making significant reductions. In fact, we have probably one of the cleanest motor coach fleets in Canada, moving our guests from the terminal to downtown Victoria.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

Mr. Kurek, go ahead.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much.

Thank you to all the witnesses for joining us.

Before I jump into my questions, I'd just note that I'm very pleased to have the support of the committee and the opportunity to be the vice-chair. Certainly, in coming from a large rural constituency that is at the centre of energy production in our country, I'm very pleased to be a part of this. I thank the chair and, of course, the analysts, the clerk and everybody involved for their work.

Statements were made by Ms. Vera-Perez and also by Mr. Kakumanu about their short-, medium- and long-term solutions. I think that's absolutely key.

You referenced “low-hanging fruit”. In my constituency, for example, some of the major urban centres in the province of Alberta ship their garbage hours out of those major urban centres to landfills in rural Alberta.

Can you elaborate a bit both on the immediate emissions reduction possibilities associated with your technology and on how some of the supply chain wins—it's hard to believe there's a supply chain for garbage in Canada—could be accomplished through technological solutions like the company you're representing?

[Swapan Kakumanu]

It's a good question. Thank you very much.

That's absolutely right. When I said “low-hanging fruit”, I think we have long-term strategies and medium-term strategies, but what we are focusing on is what exists, what we have right now with these landfills, which are generating these methane gases.

What we are saying is, look, municipalities at the grassroots have issues. They are not able to export this garbage out—which they were able to do five or six years ago—to Asia and other countries. They're now all stuck. Several municipalities with which we talk on a daily basis are even stuck with plastics that they're afraid to put into the landfills. They're actually storing them in containers next to the landfills because they don't know what to do with them. They're all waiting for a solution. Also, some of these municipalities are actually shipping or trucking, paying $120 to $200 a tonne to ship the waste 100 kilometres away to a landfill.

What we are proposing is, look, we could actually use that waste and generate revenue for the municipalities—because that's a cost saving for them—and actually use graphite, one of the by-products where we'd be able to get more of the carbon content the waste has, which is basically used in EV batteries. What we're trying to say is that we can clean up your landfills. You could actually cost-save your line item of revenue costs where you're shipping and transporting that waste and at the same time get your lands free of these landfills.

The issue we're having is capex. Nobody wants to write the capex bill: They're willing to give us a 15-year contract or a 20-year contract, but they're saying, “Hey, you need to build this.” This is where we're approaching provincial and even federal governments and some of the agencies and saying that we are the kinds of companies that would need some support whereby we could actually prove that these technologies are working.

As we get through the next level, maybe hydrogen and the other broader strategies would play into that. By that time, we would be able to help reduce.... Our math right now shows that we can reduce 3°C of the climate temperature in Canada if we get rid of these landfills. There are basically 32 million tonnes of waste being put into landfills.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much.

Having joined the committee recently, I would like to emphasize the fact that we've heard this week that there's no silver bullet, but it's important to acknowledge the need for a diversity of solutions. I think highlighting technology is absolutely key.

Do I have about 30 seconds?

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

You have 40 seconds.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Ms. Vera-Perez, regarding hydrogen, Alberta recently announced a hydrogen strategy. Is it a step in the right direction to continue the conversation about hydrogen development here in Canada?

[Ivette Vera-Perez]

Yes, absolutely. Alberta is leading the charge on hydrogen as well. There are the hydrogen centres of excellence in Alberta. There is $50 million being put into hydrogen and into development pathways to clean hydrogen through CCUS as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

We have to go to Mr. Longfield now for five minutes.

[Lloyd Longfield, Liberal, Guelph, ON]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I'll be flipping my time over to Ms. Taylor Roy.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Longfield.

I'm very curious about the manufacturing of these gigafactories and the electrolyzers, so I'd like to direct my questions to Ms. Vera-Perez.

You mentioned that electrolysis or electrolyzers are kind of a Canadian invention or that we've been doing this for a long time. Do you think there is the potential to build a gigafactory or to manufacture electrolyzers in Canada?

[Ivette Vera-Perez]

Yes, there is. We have been advocating for that. There is one company, one electrolyzer producer in Canada, that has also opened offices in Houston. They are advocating very heavily to be allowed to build an electrolyzer gigafactory in Canada, and it could be the first. They have strong partnerships with strong European companies, as well, that could very well balance the needs of this other company.

Also, Hydrogenics—Cummins now—produces electrolyzers in Mississauga in Canada. This is happening today. They produce these small electrolyzers, up to 20 megawatts, in Canada, and now they're going to be producing the large electrolyzers, up to 100 megawatts, in the U.S.

However, there is manufacturing in Canada.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Why is there not greater manufacturing in Canada, and why do you think Cummins has gone to the U.S. to produce these larger electrolyzers?

[Ivette Vera-Perez]

Partly, it's the possibilities that the Inflation Reduction Act brings. Part of it is that there's a lot more of an appetite for risk-taking, if you will, in this case in the U.S. We're talking about this example: Just this week, Plug Power, which is one of our members, unveiled a gigafactory project in the U.S. as well. This is all because it is acknowledged that the supply chains are tight, and delivery of equipment is crucial in the right timelines. Those companies that can are taking it on themselves to develop their own gigafactories.

We spoke about Andrew Forrest. They're also doing that, of course.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

When you mention that supply chains are tight, are you saying that it's more difficult in Canada than in the U.S. due to supply chains? What's the relevance of the supply chains?

[Ivette Vera-Perez]

No, not necessarily. Supply chains are tight in general. Since the pandemic, world supply chains have.... I think we've realized how fragile we are, in a way. I don't think it's the lack of support; it's that the support is a little bit disjointed and in many different pockets. It's very difficult to navigate. There's the advanced manufacturing supercluster engine, for example. Then there's the CIB, the SIF and the CFF. We need to think about whether there's a possibility of a one-stop shop or the possibility of looking at this important.... Again, we have this overarching goal in Canada. We have a strategy.

What are the possibilities of helping—

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

I'm sorry. I just have two more quick questions, and I'm conscious of the time.

I'm just wondering if you think that the goal of the Hydrogen Shot clean hydrogen cost target is realistic. Do you think that a dollar per kilogram of hydrogen by 2030 could actually be achieved?

[Ivette Vera-Perez]

It can be achieved, and I'm not saying this in an optimistic, unrealistic way. It can be achieved, but we need to work to get there.

Depending on the colour—and I must say that we celebrate all colours of hydrogen—if we're thinking about electrolyzer-produced hydrogen, there's the price of electricity and the price of the equipment. The price of the equipment goes down with economies of scale.

[Leah Taylor Roy, Liberal, Aurora—Oak Ridges—Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

I am most interested in green hydrogen, as I feel that's really our future, the future of the world and the direction the energy market is going in. If we're going to be investing in this, I think this is the area we should be investing in.

When you say there's a greater risk appetite in the United States, do you mean from investors? Is that what you're talking about?

[Ivette Vera-Perez]

Yes, I mean from investors, from the government—the DOE, for example—and from venture capital. This is an industry that in VC terms is a hardware industry, meaning there's capex and there are things that we build. It's not an app. It's not software.

We need to understand that the exit times for these types of investments are longer, and this is why patient capital.... Also, it's not only funding. Funding is important, but also policies. Policies also have dollar amounts.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

This concludes the testimony portion of our study on green technologies.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being with us today. It was an extremely interesting and informative discussion. All the witnesses' comments will inform our thinking.

This concludes the first part of today's meeting.

We'll pause and continue in a few moments with our colleague Brian Masse.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We are looking at our first private member's bill ever, as a committee, in this 44th Parliament.

Welcome, Mr. Masse. You have up to 10 minutes. If you can do seven, that would help us finish on time. As I said, you have up to 10 minutes, if you so choose.