Environment Committee on Feb. 27th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

All right.

Please start again, Ms. Pauzé.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I think he can hear what's being said in English, but I don't think he selected the French channel.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Say something in French, Ms. Pauzé.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Good afternoon, Chief. It's nice to see you again.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

He can hear you, Ms. Pauzé. You can just start over.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Very well.

I was saying that the more I learn about the human and environmental toll of oil sands production, the more outraged I become. You said that, without water, you will die. You are living that right now.

The committee's study is on freshwater, and your drinking water comes from the Athabasca River. It is incumbent on the government to always show honour, integrity and good faith in its dealings with indigenous peoples. As far as I can tell, at least three departments should be concerned by the situation in your community, but I gather that not one of them acted with honour or integrity.

I'm talking about Bill C-61, an act respecting water, source water, drinking water, wastewater and related infrastructure on First Nation lands.

Do you think the government gave your concerns the consideration they deserved?

[Chief Billy-Joe Tuccaro]

In regard to Bill C-61, I can say this as a chief: Our concerns with the bill have not been met. I'm stating that because of where we're situated downstream from the oil sands and especially the largest wastelands. We're saying Bill C-61 is not adequate for us because, given where we live, why would we have the same guidelines in regard to the different thresholds and in regard to some things that aren't even being tested for, like naphthenic acids? We know those are potentially cancer-causing.

We, as Mikisew people, truly believe we haven't been consulted in regard to that. How could we have the same guidelines as the ones for people who live in Ottawa and the people who are living downstream? Everything goes by parts per million, where 0.05 is adequate. Anything below that is what's accumulating in my people. There are cumulative effects. That's why we're saying we need those thresholds to be buttoned down in regard to where we are situated.

Thank you.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

If I understand correctly, you weren't really consulted on Bill C‑61. For the past two decades, your community has been asking the federal government to do a health study. You asked again in 2019, when Teck Resources was planning to set up operations nearby. Neighbouring communities have asked for the same thing. Your community has reached out to the federal government numerous times, but to no avail.

What reasons did the federal government—whether it be Health Canada or Fisheries and Oceans Canada—give you for its lack of action or concern in response to your request?

[Chief Billy-Joe Tuccaro]

Can you elaborate more on that, please? Thank you.

[Monique Pauzé, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

You've been asking the federal government to conduct a health study for two decades. You asked again in 2019. I gather that nothing's been done so far.

How has the government responded to your request? What were you told? Did you get an answer? That's probably the first thing to know.

[Chief Billy-Joe Tuccaro]

Thank you.

In regard to the health study, it's something we tabled 20 years or so ago in regard to what's happening in this area. It always boils down to the lack of funding. We were in Ottawa a couple of weeks ago and we mentioned this to the health minister as well. It was the same thing—lack of funding. It blows my mind that where we're situated is the economic engine of Canada, but we cannot find some money to do a health study that can give us an idea of what is going on in the area.

I can say, as the chief of the Mikisew, that we haven't ever been anti-industry at all. We know there are safer ways of doing things. That's why we're asking for these different guidelines and thresholds to be lowered, so that my people can have a chance for a higher life expectancy, like the rest of Canada. It blows my mind, as the chief of the Mikisew Cree First Nation, that the federal government would even consider Bill C-61, an act respecting water, source water, drinking water, waste water and related infrastructure on first nation lands.

Why do we have to be a second tier in this country when we were the first peoples of this land? That tells me that there are two tiers. Why can't we have the same access to clean drinking water that you guys get in Ottawa?

That's another thing. They talk about treat and release. I'll agree to treat and release if they can put that in a pipeline and you guys in Ottawa could drink that water first.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you.

[Chief Billy-Joe Tuccaro]

That's how serious I am.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

We'll go now to Ms. Collins.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses for being here. I have questions for Chief Tuccaro, Ms. Hendriks and Mr. Pietroniro.

I'll start with Chief Tuccaro.

I think you spoke really powerfully about the impacts on your community. Your people deserve your inherent right to clean water. This would never be happening in a city like Ottawa or Montreal or Vancouver or Victoria, which I represent.

Since you last appeared at the environment committee, what has your experience been with Imperial Oil, the federal government and the Alberta Energy Regulator? Do you feel like any of your concerns have been taken seriously? Have there been adequate responses?

[Chief Billy-Joe Tuccaro]

Who did you mention?

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

It was the federal government, the Alberta Energy Regulator and Imperial Oil.

[Chief Billy-Joe Tuccaro]

In regard to the AER and their response, again, they can only do what.... I'm going to be honest and say they can't really do much because they can't bite the hand that feeds them. That's who they get their funding from, the industry itself. They're coming back into the community on March 5, I believe, to do another open house. They're going to try to repair the relationship in regard to the trust that was broken a couple of years ago.

In terms of the feds, how will we know these changes will be made if these recommendations that we're putting forward in regard to all the different thresholds being lowered...? Until this day, as first nations people, it's hard to take words when we'd rather see action.

With Imperial, I can say that they've stepped up to try to improve the relationship in regard to what was broken a couple of years ago. We've had some meetings with them. They've brought some water into the community a few times. For that the community is thankful, but in regard to that there's still lots of work to be done to repair the relationship in regard to all those three.

Thank you.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Thank you so much.

I just feel like your community deserves access to clean drinking water and also to clean water for hunting and fishing and swimming in lakes.

[Chief Billy-Joe Tuccaro]

The thing is, sure we're getting the drinking water, but a lot of my people are scared to use it for bathing and even for cooking and stuff like that. That's a lot on their mental health. It's a long way to go.

Thank you.

[Laurel Collins, NDP, Victoria, BC]

Honestly, what you shared about the disconnection from the land that happens when people can no longer use water in traditional ways and what that means to the opioid crisis in your community, these are really serious impacts. The federal government has a responsibility to step up and to listen to your recommendations.

I have a small amount of time, so I do want to ask Ms. Hendriks a couple of questions.

In particular, I wanted to ask you about the cost of climate change and the cost that we're seeing when it comes to water. We've heard from our Conservative colleagues sometimes that climate action costs too much money. I'm just curious. From your perspective, how do you respond to those kinds of concerns?

[Elizabeth Hendriks]

I think the cost of inaction is going to be too much. We see increasingly every year the insurance companies are coming out and saying this is billions of dollars. I think last year it was $3 billion of climate-related insurance impact.

If you want to talk investment, why aren't we, when we flow dollars, looking at those investments with a climate lens? I would say if you want to talk nature agreements, health agreements with provinces and municipalities or a green municipal fund, those should all be with a freshwater and a climate lens to maximize those benefits and maximize those investments and be more efficient with our use.

Insurance companies have also said they won't insure houses built on flood plains. Why are provinces or federal governments supporting rebuilds on flood plains? We need to be looking through those lenses or we're wasting that money. Nobody wants, in this economy, to see a waste of money. I would just say we can no longer ignore nature and the needs of nature. There are tons of ways to increase those investments to benefit both communities and nature at this point.

[The Chair, Liberal, Francis Scarpaleggia]

Thank you. Unfortunately, the member's time is up.

We are now starting the second round. I'm going to cut everyone's time by a quarter, so members will have either four or two minutes, as the case may be.

Go ahead, Mr. Mazier.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming out today. My questions this afternoon will be for Nutrien.

In your opening remarks—and I think this bears repeating here—you said, “the use of fertilizer accounts for approximately 50% of global crop yields. It's critical for growers to meet the continued, growing demand for food, fuel and fibre.” I've farmed all my life and I've been in farm policy all my life, yet I didn't think it was that high—50%.

If we were to reduce any type of fertilizer in our agriculture industries right now, we would start reducing at least 50% of our food production. That's quite an important thing to remember as we talk about how we deal with water and fertilizers. Also, we know fertilizer is needed to grow food and to feed the world.

Can you tell the committee how important water is to fertilizer production?

[Tim Faveri]

Thank you.

Yes, in fertilizer production, water is pretty critical for our industrial processes in nitrogen and phosphate manufacturing. In mining, it's less so. It's a closed-loop system that we use in potash mining. What's very important is the fact that fresh water is available at the start of our process.

Mike, if there's anything else you would like to add, please do so.