Evidence of meeting #21 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was price.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Julie Dabrusin  Minister of the Environment, Climate Change and Nature

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Angelo Iacono

I call the meeting to order. Good afternoon, colleagues.

Today is meeting number 21 of the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development.

This meeting is taking place in a hybrid format and is in public. We are meeting with the Honourable Julie Dabrusin, Minister of the Environment, Climate Change and Nature, for one hour.

For those in person, please follow the health and safety guidelines on the cards found on the table to prevent audio feedback incidents.

The committee is starting its study of the output-based pricing system.

This morning, Minister Dabrusin is accompanied by John Moffet, associate deputy minister.

Minister Dabrusin, you have five minutes for your opening statements, and since you've been here before, you can recall this time card.

Thank you. Go ahead. The floor is yours.

Noon

Toronto—Danforth Ontario

Liberal

Julie Dabrusin LiberalMinister of the Environment

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. I'm happy to be here with you again as Minister of the Environment, Climate Change and Nature and minister responsible for Parks Canada, the Impact Assessment Agency of Canada and the Canada Water Agency.

I would like to begin by acknowledging and recognizing that we are meeting on the traditional territory of the Anishinabe Algonquin nation.

I am also pleased to have senior officials from my department here with me today.

I have the associate deputy minister, John Moffet, with me today.

I am here to talk to you about an opportunity for Canada.

A growing number of countries are competing to develop the clean technologies and green industries that will define the next century. Canada is uniquely positioned to be at the forefront of this transition.

The climate competitiveness strategy is part of our new approach to building the infrastructure, housing and industries that will grow our economy and ensure lasting prosperity.

It builds on Canada's strengths: world-class industries, a skilled and talented workforce, diverse trading partnerships, and a strong domestic market, where Canadians can be our best customers.

It also creates predictability and the ideal conditions for investments that will make Canadian businesses well positioned not only to compete, but also to be at the forefront of the new global economy.

That is how we know that climate action is both a moral obligation and an economic imperative. We know that we must reduce emissions for future generations, here and around the world. The climate competitiveness strategy aims to turn this imperative into an opportunity for Canadians.

One of the most practical tools that makes this possible is industrial carbon pricing. It will deliver more emissions reduction than any other policy, with negligible impacts on affordability for Canadians because it does not dictate what must be done. Pricing emissions rewards cleaner production by driving investment in decarbonization wherever those opportunities are the lowest cost.

Our industrial carbon pricing system is also designed to keep costs low to protect against competitiveness risks. It does this by putting a price on the marginal emissions of a company rather than on all of its emissions. This means that total costs are low, but each company faces a continuous incentive to reduce its emissions.

However, for industry to plan, invest and innovate, they need long-term certainty. They need to have confidence in the future price trajectory and the overall health of the carbon market. That's why the Government of Canada has committed to improving the effectiveness of Canada's industrial carbon pricing system. Our goal is simple: strong, reliable, consistent systems across Canada, covering a broad range of greenhouse gas emissions at a common level of stringency.

Of course, we recognize that the path forward must be shaped together. That's why we're going to initiate a public discussion on how to strengthen the pricing benchmark. The benchmark sets the criteria that ensures all provincial and territorial industrial pricing systems are similarly effective in providing a common, strong and durable price signal. We will work collaboratively with provinces, territories, indigenous peoples, industry, investors and stakeholders to refine the benchmark.

This work is about building a stronger, cleaner, more competitive economy that thrives in a world striving to cut emissions and capture new opportunities. Together, these measures will provide the certainty and predictability needed to establish an industrial carbon price trajectory that is aligned with achieving net zero by 2050.

This is about people, Canadians, who want long-term, security-focused jobs in global leading industries and a path that is cleaner, brighter and better for everyone.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Angelo Iacono

Thank you very much, Minister.

Now I will pass the floor to the Conservative Party for six minutes.

Mr. Bexte.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for joining us today. I really appreciate your presence.

Also, thank you, Mr. Moffet, for joining us. I understand congratulations are in order. Your portfolio has been topped up and increased, so congratulations.

I would like to pursue some of these thoughts on the industrial carbon tax that you're laying out. What is the anticipated annual take of carbon tax nationally every year?

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

What is the anticipated annual...?

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

What is the revenue to the federal coffers?

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

It doesn't add to federal coffers.

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

Where does the money go?

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

It goes back to the province or the jurisdiction where it's collected, and then that is often paid back to industries. In fact, if you would like, I can give you examples—

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

No, it's paid—

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

I can give you the example of how Alberta has used it to catalyze carbon reductions in industries.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

Investments.... Okay. Industries pay this. Different types of industries and different types of companies pay this carbon tax.

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

They pay it into—

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

They pay it into wherever it goes.

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Yes, but it does not come to the federal coffers.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

It does not come to the federal government, but it goes to a bucket.

How much do we anticipate annually? Aggregated together, is it $1,000 or $1 million or $1 billion...$10 billion?

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

Well, this depends, because there are different ways.... For example, they also can buy credits from one another, which is why you will hear—

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

Then there's money traded. In aggregate, though, how much money are we talking about annually?

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

I'm not focused on.... When we do it, we're focused on making sure there's an effective system where industry understands what its credit prices are—

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

Still, the scale of it is what I'm trying to get at—not the machinations of it, but the scale. How large?

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

The scale is that it covers currently about 39% of Canada's total GHGs, and the scale of it—

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

How many dollars does that mean, though?

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

I'm trying to explain that this is a regulation that's been reviewed by the Supreme Court of Canada, which has the reduction of emissions as its goal.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

David Bexte Conservative Bow River, AB

That's irrelevant to my line of questioning. My questioning is related to how large that component of the Canadian economy is. If it's small, that's fine. I don't care. Is it $1 billion or $10 billion dollars?

Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON

It's just not calculated that way.