Environment Committee on Dec. 11th, 2025

[Patrick Bonin, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I will repeat my question, minister. How much is it per tonne? Do you have that number? If not, could you forward it to the committee?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Again, you did not read the MOU in full. It talks about the carbon pricing and other measures.

It's to the agreement of both parties and factoring other measures.

You are focusing on just one part of the MOU. That is not everything it says.

[Patrick Bonin, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

You do not have the numbers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Angelo Iacono]

Mr. Ross, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Ellis Ross, Conservative, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, the example you used initially was Algoma Steel. You talked mainly about the corporate advantage, the corporate competitiveness, in your transition plan, but you didn't mention anything about the mass layoff. In fact, I haven't heard anything yet about the transition of the 900 workers from Local 2251 who will be laid off, and the 150 union workers of United Steelworkers who will be laid off in a mass layoff.

Have you done an assessment of how many workers overall nationally will be laid off under your transition plan?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

That is a mash-up of many things that don't accord with each other.

First of all, as we head into this holiday season and we see the layoffs that have happened at Algoma, we should absolutely be thinking about those workers and have them at the heart of what we're doing as we face U.S. tariffs.

[Ellis Ross, Conservative, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

That's my point—

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

No, it is U.S. tariffs.

[Ellis Ross, Conservative, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

This is the first time you've mentioned workers, and it's because of my question.

In that same vein, when you're talking about Algoma Steel and the transition, have you assessed the amount of activity that will take place in other countries that will not use arc furnaces to produce steel? I'm talking about Russia, China and United States, which don't have the same environmental standards. Yes, I understand China and Russia are under sanctions from Canada, but they're still competitors, so, globally, will the emissions increase or stay the same under one facility in Canada going to arc furnaces?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

There are two pieces. I just really want to clarify that Michael Garcia, the president of Algoma Steel, said specifically that the industrial carbon price was not a problem for him. He did point out that the tariffs from the United States were a problem. I think we need to make sure that when we're pointing fingers about what the problems are that are being faced by our steel industry, the problem is the U.S. tariffs and not the industrial carbon price. I can quote him specifically.

[Ellis Ross, Conservative, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

What about my question specifically on other countries that will pick up the slack and do not use arc furnaces or have a climate action strategy or a carbon tax?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

Why don't I actually go to his words about that? He deals with that. He said, “When we convert to electric arc furnaces, our carbon intensity will be 70% lower, so we'll actually have an advantage versus our competitors in both the United States and Canada that are making blast furnace steel that has a much higher carbon intensity. We see that as a competitive advantage.”

That's not me making up these words. This is what the president of that company said.

[Ellis Ross, Conservative, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Are you saying that the United States, China and Russia will not use coal, for example, to produce steel, as opposed to what Algoma is going to do?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

What I'm saying is that, first of all, you can look at what the actual industrial leader said in that case: It makes them more competitive. What we see is that when we have trade partners with whom we're trying to build trade, such as the EU and the U.K., they're putting in border adjustments. That actually means that if our steel is lower carbon intensity and has an industrial carbon price on it, it actually has better access to those markets.

[Ellis Ross, Conservative, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I understand that. I understand that, but China—

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

No, but you're talking about our market advantage.

[Ellis Ross, Conservative, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

No, no. I'm talking about our competitors when you're producing steel. It's well known that China has been building two coal plants per month, and now they're trying to frame it that they're going after clean energy, when in reality they're actually producing over 50% of global emissions.

I mean, all credit to Canada. You are trying your best to reduce emissions, but we're talking about global emissions. The United States is one of the biggest global emitters in the world. China is one of the biggest global emitters in the world. Russia is one of the biggest global emitters in the world. Our taking our own producers out of that equation actually creates a gap that will be filled by our competitors, who don't have the same environmental standards as us.

Minister, do you agree with that statement?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I 100% do not, because I am telling you that the president of the company that actually makes that steel—

[Ellis Ross, Conservative, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

The president of the company is not here. You're here. You're in charge of the climate action plan. I'm talking about other countries that don't have the same environmental standards as Canada. They will actually produce more steel not using arc furnaces.

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

I guess I'm just going by the actual facts about what our trade markets are and what they are looking for in low-carbon products. You seem to be making up things for which I have not seen the evidence.

[Ellis Ross, Conservative, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Are you telling me that China is not one of the biggest global emitters in the world?

[The Chair, Liberal, Angelo Iacono]

Thank you.

Ms. Miedema, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Shannon Miedema, Liberal, Halifax, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

I'm reminded of the tragedy of the commons. That's why we have international conferences every year around global agreement on climate action. We all know that we have a serious problem.

Minister, I think there's something missing in the understanding of some of my colleagues across the way here, and probably the public generally, on what industrial carbon pricing is and why it's so important to Canada's economic competitiveness. What's the missing link that Canadians really need to know the most? What would you like to share?

[Julie Dabrusin, Liberal, Toronto—Danforth, ON]

There are a few things. Taking a moment from the exchange we just had, if an industry that's covered by the industrial carbon price is producing lower emissions, it doesn't pay an industrial carbon price. That's if it's at or below the average amount of carbon or pollution that's created. There's not only that; it can make money from credits, so there's an advantage whereby it can get credits as part of the system.

It's really important, and it goes back to the question we had about misinformation. The way the industrial carbon price system was developed was specifically for trade-exposed industries, to have the lowest impact on them, and to create this incentive and innovation so that they will do better in a world economy that's moving toward low carbon. I'm not making that up; that is what we're seeing in global market trends. It's also true, as I've said a few times, that we see markets having carbon border adjustments, which means we will get better access into those markets if we have an industrial carbon price.

It's important to highlight some of these points, because sometimes it feels as though, if the same thing is repeated enough times, it's true. However, just because the Conservatives are getting up in the House of Commons or in this space right now and repeating each time things about how the system works or its impacts that are factually not correct, that doesn't make them true.

I feel it is important that when we're talking about the industrial carbon price, we look at the fact that it was designed, looking specifically at trade-exposed industries, to have a minimal impact. When we're talking about impacts, it is a more positive impact for them to be able to access different markets and be competitive. We have a real choice as a country right now. We have the choice of stepping back.

I worry sometimes. I'm always talking about the economic side of things these days. I don't want to take away the moral imperative of why we need to fight climate change. I'm a mother of two women in their twenties. I have a very serious obligation, not only to my family but to our country's next generations. If that isn't even the main motivator for you, that's fine. There's an economic imperative. Our country will fall behind. We will not have the products the world is looking for if we are not producing low-carbon products, and we will fall behind if we don't have the steps we need, like an industrial carbon price.

I worry when I hear misinformation that makes it feel like the cost of food is going up because of the industrial carbon price. That is simply not true. It's not borne out by any study or facts. It's not true. What is true, though, and what we keep hearing time and time again, is that the impact of climate change is impacting the cost of food.

I'd have to get the full numbers from the food reports, but we've seen it in the reports just recently. Right now, the number of droughts we have had in our provinces that tend to be more cattle- or beef-producing is having an impact on the price of beef. It's the same thing for coffee worldwide, when we talk about the price of coffee.

Let's look at what the real causes are, and let's fight them. Let's not fight against climate action.

[The Chair, Liberal, Angelo Iacono]

Thank you, Minister.

We have exactly 10 minutes left. The next 10 minutes will be divided in the following way: the Conservative Party will have four minutes, the Liberal Party will have four minutes and the Bloc Québécois will have two minutes.

Mr. Leslie, you have four minutes.