Evidence of meeting #21 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was price.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Liberal
Wade Grant Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC
Thank you, Minister and Mr. Moffet, for taking the time to be here today.
Minister, you mentioned in your opening comments that, as we move to the future, the path forward must be taken together across all levels of government, with other stakeholders and with first nations.
I want to specifically ask a question, Minister, about the government's recently signing the MOU with the Province of Alberta that includes a commitment to strengthen industrial carbon pricing in that province.
Can you speak to why this agreement is such good news for workers, industry and Canada's climate goals?
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
Thank you for that.
There's been a lot of discussion this past week in the House of Commons about the memorandum of understanding. I mean, if we were going to talk about the industrial carbon pricing—because we are talking about Alberta when we we're talking about this memorandum of understanding—the federal carbon pricing system was actually modelled on a system that was developed in Alberta. Alberta had an industrial carbon pricing system before we had one nationally. I think that's a really important point to take into account.
Now, the next piece is that if we were looking at the votes we were having in the House of Commons this week, the part that the Conservatives were unable to include in their motion and that actually was part of the agreement with the Province of Alberta was the part about industrial carbon pricing, which is fascinating to me, because, as I said, the system is based on a system that was created in Alberta, but no matter. The other part is that a fundamental part of this memorandum of understanding is an agreement for the province and the federal government to work together on how we strengthen the industrial carbon pricing system.
That is an important step forward, because it's good from an emissions reduction standpoint, but it's also really important from a competitiveness perspective. It makes the businesses more competitive. I hear that from businesses over and over again. They want to make sure there's a certain and predictable credit price for industrial carbon pricing, so that they can make their business plans and plan out for it. Time and time again, what I'm hearing when I'm speaking with businesses is that having an industrial carbon price isn't a hindrance. It creates the way to plan forward. It incentivizes innovation.
Just as I mentioned in the context of steel—which I know is not an Alberta example as I'm saying it, but I can provide Alberta examples as well of industries that have done well with industrial carbon pricing—it actually makes them more competitive on a global market, because the world is moving towards a low-carbon economy. We see that time and time again in terms of where investments are going globally. We know as a country that we need to be trading and diversifying our trade partners. We know that we have trading blocs like the European Union and the U.K. They're moving towards carbon border adjustment mechanisms, which means they're looking to see if we have an industrial carbon price. If we have one, it gives us better access into those markets.
At the very moment that our country—provinces like Alberta, but all of our provinces—wants to have access to trade in these other international markets and to diversify, having an industrial carbon price is an important part of how we make sure that we have access into those markets and that we have preferential products that people want to buy, because countries around the world are also moving towards a low-carbon economy.
I apologize. That was a bit further out, but I think that's why this memorandum of understanding shows how the federal government can work collaboratively with provinces, and that's what we want to do. We can't reach our climate goals without working with our provinces and having our provinces also do that heavy work with us. This agreement shows that provinces like the Province of Alberta see the opportunity in making sure that we're climate competitive as an economy.
Liberal
Wade Grant Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC
Thank you, Minister.
I have only about a minute left, but I wanted to talk a bit about some of the misinformation about industrial carbon pricing. We've heard imaginary taxes on food and groceries being bandied about. Can you shed some light on the misinformation circulating regarding industrial carbon pricing?
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
Yes. There are a few things, and I'm sure we'll have chances to talk about it more.
First of all, it doesn't actually impact the cost of food. We see for the cost of food that the real impact—and this comes in study after study—is climate change, not just domestically but around the world. That is something we have to factor in when we're looking at issues, but the industrial carbon price is not part of that.
I know that it's non-industrial carbon pricing, but can we just say that there is no plastic packaging or food packaging tax? There just isn't one. I haven't seen anyone bring me that regulation yet to show me.
It's really important that we provide proper information when we're talking about things. We can have fair debates, but they have to be on the facts.
Liberal
Bloc
Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Minister, for joining us today.
I would like to discuss something with you.
The member for Laurier—Sainte‑Marie, who previously served as Minister of Environment and Climate Change, said this recently:
Unfortunately, with the rollback of hard-won measures such as consumer carbon pricing, the cap on oil and gas emissions, clean electricity regulations, and the abandonment of our commitment to end fossil fuel subsidies, it is now impossible to see how Canada will be able to meet its targets, or even achieve carbon neutrality by 2050.
Do you agree with him on that?
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
First of all, as I have often said, as parliamentary secretary to the Minister of Environment and Climate Change, I worked with Steven Guilbeault for several years and have a great deal of respect for him and his work. However, I disagree with him on this issue.
What I have always said, and I stand by it, is that our targets are ambitious. They are not easy to achieve, but we must continue to work toward them. This is important, not only for future generations, but also for our economy.
Bloc
Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC
You disagree with Mr. Guilbeault, the former minister of environment and climate change. How will you achieve these targets?
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
We have several measures.
First, in budget 2025, we talked about what we see as work within our climate competitiveness strategy, namely industrial carbon pricing and methane emissions regulations.
We are now working on a strategy for clean electricity. We are working—
Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC
Perfect.
I wanted to come back to carbon pricing.
So you have not yet strengthened the carbon pricing component in the industrial sector. According to the MOU with Alberta, the figure is $130 per tonne.
Is that a price floor or a price ceiling?
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
Forgive me, I'm trying to find the right words. That's the credit price.
Actually, there are two parts to this. When we talk about the agreed-upon price in the MOU, we are talking about the credit price, not the reference price. However, what I wanted—
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
It is neither. We now have until April to negotiate exactly what we will do in terms of industrial carbon pricing. We are currently in discussions on this matter.
Bloc
Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC
The MOU does not mention the effective date of the $130 per tonne price.
Is it for 2027, 2030, 2035, 2050?
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
Let me be clear: we need to discuss this, and it's part of the negotiations we'll be conducting, but when I say…. You asked whether it was a ceiling price or a floor price—
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
No, because there are two things that need to be considered.
We are strengthening carbon pricing across the country. This is a measure that we must implement nationwide. We already have our federal carbon pricing system. Now we need to work with the province of Alberta.
If I may explain something to you: This measure must work within the framework of our federal system. These are not different targets.
Bloc
Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC
Okay.
So you're telling me that all the regulations are being removed, those I mentioned and those mentioned by Mr. Guilbeault, the former minister of environment and climate change.
You are also saying that this is not a problem because you are going to replace them with carbon pricing. However, you do not even know when carbon pricing will come into effect for the $130 per tonne credits, and you do not know whether it will be a floor price or a ceiling price.
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
That is not exactly what I said about the two aspects I mentioned. I was trying to correct myself.
I want to raise two points.
First, I disagree with removing electricity regulations, and so on. The MOU clearly states that we will work with the province of Alberta. We can also work with all provinces on electricity regulations, which are still in force across the country. That is the first point I wanted to raise.
Second, I disagree with the claim that we are backsliding—
Bloc
Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC
Okay.
I want to come back to the issue of clean electricity.
The clean electricity regulations have been suspended, correct?
Bloc
Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC
In the MOU, there is talk of suspending the clean electricity regulations.
Liberal
Julie Dabrusin Liberal Toronto—Danforth, ON
The electricity regulations are being strengthened. They will apply to everyone in Canada as of 2035.
