Evidence of meeting #34 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was price.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Brouillette  Executive Director, Climate Action Network Canada
Keating  Chief Executive Officer, Oil and Gas Corporation of Newfoundland and Labrador
Winter  Professor, University of Calgary, As an Individual
Auer  President and Chief Executive Officer, Cement Association of Canada
Green  Senior Manager, Climate Solutions, David Suzuki Foundation

The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema

I call the meeting to order.

This is meeting 34 of the Standing Committee on Environment and Sustainable Development.

For those in person, please remember to follow health and safety guidelines on the cards on the table to prevent audio or feedback incidents.

As a reminder to committee members and witnesses, you don't need to worry about pressing the button on your microphone. It will turn red when you begin to speak.

The clerk has distributed a list of organizations that have requested the blues as per our discussion at the last meeting. It's at the committee's discretion, as we discussed, how narrowly or widely we distribute these blues. The previous chair decided that it should be a narrow distribution, but I'd like us to go to a vote on whether we make the blues more easily accessible and transparent to everyone who requests them.

The motion we are voting on is to give access to the blues upon request. Does anyone have any questions or concerns before we do the vote?

Mr. Bonin, you have the floor.

Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I didn't quite understand why this request was made and how it will change anything, given that the transcripts are available. I even wonder if it doesn't give an advantage to certain lobbies, for example, who have more money. We're even talking about artificial intelligence. It's a choice that carries certain risks or brings about some changes, and the justification for it isn't clear to me.

Why make this change at this time?

The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema

Mr. Clerk.

The Clerk of the Committee Leif-Erik Aune

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Bonin, it takes about two weeks for the minutes to be published and become available to the general public. However, the blues are available within 48 hours of adjournment. That's why a number of sectors are asking for access. There is nothing to be justified. Rather, each member must decide whether or not to agree to these requests. That's the explanation.

Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC

However, the video is available in real time, isn't it?

The Clerk

Yes, absolutely.

Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC

Okay.

The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema

We will take it to a vote.

(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

We are going to make that change.

There are two quick announcements before we begin with our witnesses today.

I have sent a letter to the Office of the Parliamentary Budget Officer requesting that the 2023 report on the energy sector and agriculture be updated. The House has not yet ratified a nomination for the appointment of a new Parliamentary Budget Officer, but the committee's request will promptly be brought to the attention of the Parliamentary Budget Officer once an appointment is made.

The next announcement is further to the motion adopted by this committee on April 14. Other committees have requested that the Major Projects Office and Dawn Farrell appear before them on April 28. This is not within our control, but we are working to schedule Ms. Farrell in. We are currently looking at the meeting on the 28th being on fresh water, because no one was available on the 28th. Then we hope that the meetings on the 30th and May 5 work for ECCC, the Secretary of State for Nature, the Parks Canada Agency, Ms. Farrell, Simon Donner and Catherine Abreu.

The clerk has been hard at work, trying to get all of those fit in on the 30th and May 5, but it's still a bit of a question mark. If we have to go out another week to schedule them in, we will, but we should get a final confirmation tomorrow. We will share that with the committee once we do.

I'd like to welcome the witnesses we have here today.

In person, we have Caroline Brouillette, the executive director of Climate Action Network Canada. Online, we have Jim Keating, the chief executive officer of the Oil and Gas Corporation of Newfoundland and Labrador.

Witnesses, you will each have five minutes to provide opening remarks, and then we will go to questions from committee members. I have a little timer to give you a one-minute notice. When your time is up, please finish as quickly as possible.

Madame Brouillette, we will begin with you. The floor is yours.

Caroline Brouillette Executive Director, Climate Action Network Canada

Members of the committee, thank you for having me.

I represent Climate Action Network Canada, which brings together nearly 200 unions, development groups, faith groups, indigenous groups and the country's leading environmental organizations working together on climate change.

Climate Action Network Canada and its members have been working for years to ensure that the biggest polluters in the Canadian economy are held accountable and pay the costs they are imposing on society as a whole.

Canada's latest national inventory report, which was published last week, makes clear that climate progress has stalled. Oil and gas emissions continue to rise, while other sectors like electricity are decreasing their impact. Since key measures have been weakened, paused or set aside during the past year, progress towards the 2030 and 2035 targets as well as the net-zero by 2050 commitment will now depend even more on the strength and credibility of Canada's industrial carbon pricing, as will our ability to maintain competitiveness in a global economy that is rapidly accelerating the adoption of net-zero technologies. This matters. It matters for Canadian workers, consumers and industries, especially given the complex times that we find ourselves in.

It's been quite troubling to note that some witnesses to this committee have failed to understand how industrial carbon-pricing systems work or have amplified common misinformation. Industrial carbon pricing does not increase household costs. Unlike the consumer carbon levy, industrial pricing does not affect the price of fuel used by households and has very little pass-through to other household purchases or services.

Analysis by the Canadian Climate Institute shows that the impact of the industrial carbon price on the average household out to 2030 is negligible. The policy, likewise, has minimal impact on the agricultural sector. This marginal impact, however, is completely overshadowed by the far more significant effect of inflation driven by war, by climate change and by the Canadian economy's over-dependence on fossil fuels, whether as consumer or producer. The surge in global prices following Russia's invasion of Ukraine as well as the shock caused by the U.S. and Israeli war on Iran illustrate the consequences of this over-dependence.

As climate change accelerates, food prices are increasingly being affected by extreme weather events, drought and unfavourable growing conditions. All of these have inflationary impacts on Canadians. For instance, the Centre for Future Work has found that from 2022 to 2024, the cumulative direct and indirect costs caused by fossil fuel-driven inflation totalled roughly $12,000 of inflation per household.

Despite all of this evidence, in its efforts to eviscerate climate policy in this country, the oil and gas industry and its supporters have been promoting the idea that the trajectory of industrial carbon pricing will lead to an additional $20 per barrel in 2030. The Canadian Climate Institute has calculated the real compliance cost from oil sands facilities, using data published by Alberta; and they find the effective average cost, across all facilities, comes closer to 50¢ per barrel in 2030.

If fuel prices remain at current levels, Canadian oil and gas companies are projected to rake in profits of $90 billion from the Iran war. I am sincerely struggling to find words to respond to the suggestion that they can't afford to pay the cost of a Timbit per barrel.

It's been nearly one year since the new government was elected, and Climate Action Network Canada and its members are getting impatient to see the Carney administration show its cards and implement this policy. It's high time that the government showed its resolve to the many voters who cast a vote of confidence based on the Prime Minister's climate credibility and are wondering what happened to that enthusiasm.

At this point, the network and its members are ready for our industrial carbon pricing system to finally be updated. We're waiting for you.

Thank you very much.

I will be pleased to answer your questions.

The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema

Thank you so much.

We will now go to Mr. Keating, online, for five minutes.

The floor is yours.

Jim Keating Chief Executive Officer, Oil and Gas Corporation of Newfoundland and Labrador

Thank you for your kind invitation.

As the CEO of a Crown corporation, I sit in a magic spot between the investor—one who participates on a commercial basis in this industry—and on the other side, I represent the people, the government. I look for maximum economic rent extraction, and hope to strike a balance for the benefit of the sector and those within it.

What brings me here is to note that it's very striking that across the global competitive landscape—

Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC

I'm sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Keating.

Madam Chair, there's a problem with the interpreting. I'm hearing two voices at the same time on the French interpretation channel.

The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema

We'll pause for just a moment, Mr. Keating.

You can now go ahead.

3:55 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Oil and Gas Corporation of Newfoundland and Labrador

Jim Keating

What's striking is that in this globally competitive landscape for offshore exploration investment, Canada, and specifically Newfoundland and Labrador—and soon, I hope, Nova Scotia, with its licensing rounds—stand almost alone in applying a carbon price to a resource that we collectively and overwhelmingly export and rely on for economic security.

If we look at our comparators, we find only a narrow subset of OECD countries—Norway, the U.K. and Australia—in a similar situation, but this comparison quickly breaks down. The U.K. has effectively stepped away from exploration. It's no longer a meaningful competitor. Also, an Australian system introduced recently, in 2023, is largely oriented towards LNG and natural gas. Meanwhile, jurisdictions that are the most active and most successful in attracting offshore oil exploration—the United States, Guyana, Suriname, Brazil, Namibia, Malaysia, India, and Indonesia—apply no carbon price at all.

The question becomes, how do we remain competitive in that environment?

To answer that, it's worth looking a little more closely at Norway. If you want to understand effective energy policy, Norway is one of the few places to study it seriously. It is not perfect, by any means, but it has built a durable model, one that maximizes the long-term value of its natural resources while maintaining strong environmental and societal support. It is a model that Canada should be learning from, not ignoring.

Norway's carbon pricing system is particularly relevant because it applies directly to upstream oil and gas, as it does here. Norway uses two overlapping mechanisms: a CO2 tax in place since 1991 and participation in the EU emissions trading system. These apply directly to offshore fuel, combustion flaring, diesel use, gas turbines and so on and are charged on the per tonne basis of CO2 emitted. The resulting cost is amongst the highest in the world, often in the range of $80 to $150 U.S. per tonne, but here's a crucial point: These costs are treated as operating expenses and are deductible within Norway's petroleum system. With a marginal tax rate of 78%, the state effectively shares a large part of that carbon cost.

Yes, the carbon price was real and significant, but so was the fiscal offset. The result is that Norwegian producers face a meaningful and predictable carbon cost, particularly in operations, but within a system that has been deliberately designed to preserve investment attractiveness.

At first glance, Norway appears contradictory: high carbon prices alongside strong exploration activity. By comparison, Norway had 50 exploration wells last year offshore and Canada had zero, but this is not by accident. It is by design. Norway operates two parallel policy tracks serving different objectives. It seeks to de-risk the front end on investment, but discipline the back end on operations.

With regard to the front end, Norway aggressively reduces exploration risks with 78% marginal tax paired with refunds of approximately 78% of exploration costs, with the immediate expensing and investing of incentives. If a well is dry, companies recover most of those costs. If it's successful, of course, they retain a meaningful upside. Critically, new entrants, even those with no taxable income in Norway, receive cash refunds from the government in the next fiscal year. This dramatically lowers the risk-adjusted cost of exploration and keeps drilling activity strong, even for smaller players.

In the back end, once production begins, the system now tightens. Hydrocarbon pricing applies to all oil production, from the very first tonne. A combined CO2 tax and EU ETS exposure provides strong incentives for electrification, efficiency and low-emissions design. In other words, Norway does not discourage exploration—it shapes it.

Carbon pricing does not suppress investment. It disciplines how projects are developed and operated. It creates a culture of investment in Norway. The result is that Norway continues to attract significant exploration investments, not despite its carbon pricing system, but alongside it, because the exploration risk is materially reduced.

The carbon regime is predictable and fully integrated into project economics, and the overall fiscal system delivers competitive, risk-adjusted returns. High carbon prices alone would deter investment, but Norway does not rely on carbon pricing alone. It deploys a complete and balanced system.

Canada, by contrast, appears largely indifferent to investment attraction. Our approach is fragmented. We focus heavily on regulating and taxing existing production, the back end of the value chain, while paying insufficient attention to the front end.

Thank you.

4 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema

Thank you very much, Mr. Keating.

We will now go to questions from committee members.

We will begin with Ms. Anstey for six minutes.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Carol Anstey Conservative Long Range Mountains, NL

Thank you, Mr. Keating, for the great work you do for Newfoundland and Labrador and for appearing again on this committee for this important discussion.

I just want to dig into some of the points you've raised. Most importantly, we've just struck a deal on the offshore. It's a milestone agreement with Equinor and BP to advance the Bay du Nord project. This would be Equinor's very first operatorship offshore of Canada and BP's first production.

I want to frame this question with respect to where we've been over the last number of years and where we are now. How important are new international investors to Newfoundland and Labrador's offshore?

4 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Oil and Gas Corporation of Newfoundland and Labrador

Jim Keating

New investors are paramount. We are not like western Canada where largely all good acreage is taken and subscribed. We are only 7% or 8% subscribed in terms of the available offshore licensed area. We very much depend on the entry of new companies like Equinor and BP to make sure our industry continues and flourishes.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Carol Anstey Conservative Long Range Mountains, NL

Just for a more fulsome picture of that for the benefit of the committee, can you describe where we've been from an investment perspective in the province of Newfoundland and Labrador on our offshore over the last number of years, when you've gone out for rounds of investment?

4 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Oil and Gas Corporation of Newfoundland and Labrador

Jim Keating

We have a tale of two solitudes. Between 2013 and 2018, we had a fairly significant level of interest. We had over 14 companies bid over $4 billion of work commitments in over 20 exploration licences. Unfortunately, COVID-induced and compounded by a subsequent layering of regulatory policy and uncertainty, in the last three years we have received zero bids for the first time in our 50-year history and zero exploration wells for the first time in our 50-year history.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Carol Anstey Conservative Long Range Mountains, NL

What does that mean for the province of Newfoundland and Labrador when these sorts of things happen in an economic environment that's extremely dependent on this industry?

4 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Oil and Gas Corporation of Newfoundland and Labrador

Jim Keating

Oil and gas are the lifeblood of all industries. It's been 23% to 26% of GDP on average in the last several years, and almost the same amount for basic government revenue. It is larger than the next six industrial sectors combined. As it goes, the province goes.

With great excitement, we built expectations on this new project called Bay du Nord, but there is much more out there. There are many more projects like Bay du Nord just waiting to be discovered. It's my job, of course, to make sure that happens.

4 p.m.

Conservative

Carol Anstey Conservative Long Range Mountains, NL

That's a great segue to my next question.

When you're looking for this investment and when these investors are looking at our industry and at Canada, how do they encounter this price on carbon? You've talked about other countries. Can you just expand on that a little bit?

4 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Oil and Gas Corporation of Newfoundland and Labrador

Jim Keating

We're very much an outlier. For the first instance, we have to kind of characterize that. Those who are familiar with Norway will kind of quickly understand that this is part of another economic rent. Unlike Norway, like I said, there's no equal and opposite offset to balance that risk, so it simply has to be modelled. What they don't understand and don't appreciate are the nuances and the complexity in the systems that exist here in Canada, so they end up modelling the worst-case outcome. It's not 50 cents as I've heard before, but it may go as high as two dollars to $2.50. On a $60 barrel, when $45 is your target price, that starts to become meaningful.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Carol Anstey Conservative Long Range Mountains, NL

Would you agree that it's not just the price, but it's also the complexity?

4:05 p.m.

Chief Executive Officer, Oil and Gas Corporation of Newfoundland and Labrador

Jim Keating

Very much so. The complexity is of great concern. This is a program in Canada that was first discussed in 2017, initiated in 2019, reviewed in 2022 and modified again in 2023. Now we're talking about it today in 2026 with more discussions to be had in 2027 and 2028. It's a constantly moving target and topic. It is more than an irritant; it is something that needs to be managed.

When we have had no investment and no activity, that's just one further obstacle in our way.