Environment Committee on Oct. 20th, 2026

[Isabelle Demers]

Quebec has a large number of multiplex units, for example.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shannon Miedema]

Thank you very much, Ms. Demers and Mr. Bonin.

We'll now switch to Mr. Leslie again for five minutes, please.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

To the Propane Association, your association has raised concerns about limited electrical capacity in rural communities. I'm wondering if you can provide actual cases of heating conversions that required a panel service or transformer upgrade and what the costs and delays involved with that might have been.

[Shannon Watt]

I'll send it over to my colleague.

[Jeff Daley, Designer in Heating, Ventilation, and Air Conditioning, Canadian Propane Association]

As mechanical contractors, we literally see that every day. In a lot of cases, 200-amp service is required for an all-electric heat pump, but the homeowner has only 100-amp service.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you for raising that. I actually checked my own house, and I'm on 100 amps. I thought to myself, “How do I get my electric car plug-in, my heat pump and all my other appliances on this without doing a conversion?” My math tells me that's not possible.

What is the implication for all of those folks who are looking to embrace this heat pump program, any of the other government-related programs or just enhancements to their own house? In terms of the cost, timelines and any other associated headaches, what does it look like for that family's home in requiring those upgrades?

[Jeff Daley]

Across the country, there's a pretty broad spectrum of cases. Some houses already have 200-amp service. In some cases, 200-amp service is roughed in to the electrical meter, and it's simply a matter of replacing the panel. In some cases, the house is 500 metres from the road, and it would require 500 metres of new electrical line to be trenched in, which could be in the tens of thousands of dollars. It varies, based on the case.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Do you have any indication, based on your own experiences in the technical field? Would each of those cases be about a third of those scenarios? What is your guesstimate?

[Jeff Daley]

I would say that most rural houses built in the last 40 years have 200 amps roughed in to the hydro meter base, which would make it a $3,000 to $5,000 upgrade. The more rural and older a property is, the greater the chance that a more extensive upgrade will be required.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

A lot of what we talk about is the ROI for these more efficient heat sources or cooling sources. Do you think that in a lot of the pitches about why we should be having a heat pump program for however many million Canadians are allegedly going to get this, that possibility needs to be considered for all those people before they apply?

[Jeff Daley]

I think it's important to provide a choice. Somebody who already has 200 amps will have very little financial obligation to make it happen. Someone with a more difficult retrofit should have the option to have something like propane as their backup.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Much as you just said in your initial testimony, the Canada Green Building Council told this committee that hybrid heating can be appropriate in colder regions, where keeping a working propane furnace alongside a heat pump may give a family the lowest reliable lifetime cost.

Should federal programs explicitly accommodate that option, in your view? You mentioned that Ontario, I believe, has something in that space.

[Shannon Watt]

In these cases, we're seeing provinces actually include propane. In Yukon's dependable grid program—that's what they've called it—they've included propane as part of the hybrid option. With provinces seeing more on-the-ground implementation, we are seeing more propane being included.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

In the event that somebody adopts that, what should a rural homeowner budget for maintenance, delivery charges and an urgent winter repair over the equipment's lifetime? Are those costs included in the savings that your industry is painting as part of this?

[Shannon Watt]

We actually have some numbers. In fact, Jeff showed up with a bunch of numbers. Perhaps we could provide you with a report that gives you that detailed information.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Sure. I would appreciate that.

I'll move over to Mr. Saulnier.

The building system you've outlined here sounds very interesting. I have a company in my riding that has a very similar system, but they build sheds—machine sheds or garages—and they're all new. Yours talks about retrofitting.

I'm curious about how many occupied homes your technologies or your systems have undertaken so far and what the evidence shows in terms of the outcomes in emissions reductions or, more importantly, the cost for the folks who have undertaken those projects.

[David Saulnier]

That's a really good question. Thank you.

We have between 60 and 70 homes that people are living in right now. We have a sister company in Lloydminster, Alberta, that's building for first nations right now, and obviously, I've been building in Nova Scotia.

They did a one-to-one comparison, I believe in Saskatchewan, for first nations. They ordered a unit. They used it for one fiscal year and compared the energy efficiencies of a conventional home with those of the composite home. They found that the composite home used 30% of the energy used by the conventional home right next to it. They have since put in orders for.... I think they want over 170 homes put in. They're finalizing those contracts now.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Were those new builds or were those expansions?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shannon Miedema]

You are out of time, Mr. Leslie.

Give a quick answer, please, Mr. Saulnier.

[David Saulnier]

Those were new builds.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shannon Miedema]

That's perfect.

We will now turn to Mr. Greaves for five minutes, please.

[Will Greaves, Liberal, Victoria, BC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good afternoon, colleagues. Thank you to our witnesses for joining us today.

I would like to pick up on a line of questioning similar to the one my colleague opposite was engaging in a moment ago.

I'll go to you first, Mr. Daley, as the person here who I think installs these systems most directly.

In previous discussions in this committee, we've heard questions about the suitability of heat pump systems in cold weather and questions about whether or not, as you've noted today in your opening statement, they require a secondary heating system as a backup.

The Government of Yukon had a study that was released, I believe, in 2022. It identified heat pumps as being effective for all home heating purposes down to a temperature of -18°C. I'm wondering, in light of the improving effectiveness of this technology, if it is only in the parts of the country where winter temperatures regularly go below -18°C that you would say it's necessary to have that kind of a backup system.

[Jeff Daley]

I would pick up on something that Madame Demers said earlier. If you're leaking all of the energy out of the house, the heat pump isn't very effective. I would say that the state of the building envelope or building enclosure has more to do with the effectiveness of the heat pump than the outdoor temperature does.

In my area, we have areas where, within a 10-kilometre radius, one house would work only to 5°C and another might work to -25°C with the exact same heat pump. It has more to do with the building enclosure than the climate.

[Will Greaves, Liberal, Victoria, BC]

I appreciate that answer. Thank you.

You're saying it's less about generalizing across different regions of the country and it's much more specific to the actual building envelope as to whether or not one source of heating or two would be necessary to have reliable home heating.

[Jeff Daley]

Absolutely.