Environment Committee on Oct. 20th, 2026

[Isabelle Demers]

I would like to say that it's all of those elements. It's not the responsibility of only one person and only one organization. In Quebec, for instance, Hydro-Québec has a role to play, but the homeowners also have a role to play. When there is no incentive to renovate because you cannot, for instance, recharge the renovation to the persons who are living there, then you are removing the possibility of making a real impact.

It's a responsibility that is shared between those who are living in the places, whether they are renters or homeowners, and the government, which needs to make sure that they put in place the proper regulations and programs so that we can scale up the renovations that are needed. At the moment, we're not scaling up as much as we should.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

In that vein, you've proposed that, basically, that is the opportunity. When a renovation is happening, that is when we should be doing the energy improvements and not just, for example, on a different side of things, replacing an existing furnace with one item because the end of the life cycle makes the most sense.

How do you provide some safeguards for, say, a young family repairing an older home by making an affordable upgrade and enhancing it with those energy improvements? How do you maintain that affordability that might deter or defer the entirety of the renovation?

[Isabelle Demers]

There are two things in there.

First, we need to look not at the very short-term ROI but at the cost of not renovating or the cost of the energy loss. This is something that we can look at on a long-term basis. It becomes more costly every year to not renovate. This is one thing that we should look at.

Second, there are programs that exist. One of the great ones is called the PACE program. The leader in Canada is Alberta, for instance, which has implemented PACE programs that help by providing loans to do some really effective renovations. The impact is immediate when the house is renovated.

The great thing about this program is that it's not given to a person but is attached to a building. The fact that it's attached to a building makes it so that the next time the building is sold, for instance, the loan stays with the building. That way, it can be repaid without allowing the individual to make a profit off the loan. It's a great program, and at this moment, Alberta is the leader in it.

[Branden Leslie, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you.

That's an obvious challenge. First, who is going to be doing these projects? It's people who are going to do them anyway, versus those who might need vastly more important energy improvements for a home or a residence.

In that vein, in your Quebec budget submission, you asked for renovation subsidies and faster recovery of landlords' investments through rent increases.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shannon Miedema]

Mr. Leslie, I'm sorry, but we're out of time.

We will move on to Mr. Malette for six minutes, please.

[Chris Malette, Liberal, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much for being with us here today.

My first question is for Ms. Demers.

In your estimation, Ms. Demers, how can federal incentive programs better support homeowners who want to improve heating efficiency but can't afford the upfront cost of replacing their existing systems?

[Isabelle Demers]

There are three ways that we would recommend doing that.

The first, of course, is to provide some sort of grant that helps to reduce the net cost of the work. This is one way to put it. Then we could strengthen some existing federal energy efficiency retrofit programs that already exist, such as the Canada greener homes affordability program and the Canada greener homes loan program.

The second way is this idea of providing loans to help households overcome the barrier of upfront costs. The PACE program that I just spoke about is one great example. It links the repayment of an energy-efficient renovation loan to the property tax account, so it's managed by municipalities. At this moment, Alberta is the leader in Canada, but Saskatchewan also has some smaller-scale projects of that kind. Nova Scotia has some, and there are pilot projects in Quebec. The obligation is transferred from one owner to the next in the case of a sale. That way, we make sure that the loan helps the building as opposed to helping an individual person. It's a very strong project.

The third way is tax credits for energy efficiency renovations. There's a perception that efficient renovations are more costly, but they're not. Eventually, after a few years, they become a great value because they enhance the value of the building. Instead of a depreciation of the building, there is an appreciation of the building. That's why we need to move away from a very short-term ROI.

[Chris Malette, Liberal, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Thank you very much for that.

My next question is for Mr. Saulnier.

Mr. Saulnier, you've explained that recycled PET composites can be used to construct a home. In your estimation, what changes to Canada's building codes, standards or approval processes would help this technology gain wider acceptance?

[David Saulnier]

Unfortunately, it's a long road ahead. We have contacted CCMC to try to get some traction and some groundwork done for exactly what you're saying.

To be honest, the challenge is getting architects and designers educated on sandwich construction, especially in composites.

I deal in recycled plastic using fibreglass skins. SIP homes are built with OSB and expanded polystyrene, with OSB skins on the outside. Architects and the Canadian building code are very well versed in that type of construction. I have the same thing, except in my opinion, it's very much more durable and resistant to the elements.

As I said in my introduction, I've built many commercial boats out of the same material. They go on the ocean and get pounded in 20-foot seas for years. The fishermen bring their boat to the wharf and tie it up, and there it is the next day, whereas if you have a storm go through.... You all know the challenges storms give to conventional construction.

As far as the building code goes, here in Nova Scotia I deal closely with building inspectors. We have engineer-stamped drawings on anything we do, because recycled PET plastic is not in the building code yet.

[Chris Malette, Liberal, Bay of Quinte, ON]

I have one final question. It's for Ms. Watt.

Across my riding in the Bay of Quinte, many residents rely on propane to heat their homes and businesses. In your estimation, how can the federal government ensure its environmental policies recognize the realities facing rural households in keeping energy affordable and reliable?

We're limited here, I think.

[Shannon Watt]

To me, it's about energy choice. It's about making sure that homeowners know what their choices are and what the trade-offs are and are able to access them. It's about ensuring that any federal program has all the options on the table for those homeowners.

[Chris Malette, Liberal, Bay of Quinte, ON]

What innovations in propane equipment and heating efficiency offer the greatest potential to reduce emissions, while maintaining that reliable service for households and businesses?

[Shannon Watt]

It's renewable propane.

We're going to need molecules, no matter how we look at electrification or the future of energy. Propane is a really great molecule. Renewable propane is identical and can do the exact same thing with a much lower carbon intensity and much lower criteria air contamination. It's really a very clean energy that most of you can find in your backyard when you cook on your barbecue.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shannon Miedema]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Bonin, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Patrick Bonin, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms. Demers, you mentioned the federal government's national heat pump rebate program, which has just been announced. In your view, is this sufficient, particularly in terms of the funding itself, but perhaps also in terms of the overall budget?

For example, we have heard comments suggesting that, for people or families on lower incomes, the lack of the initial capital required to access the funding remains an issue.

[Isabelle Demers]

Thank you. That's a good question.

Of course, programs like these are absolutely essential. However, we recommend going beyond simply providing technical equipment. It is important to realize that low-income families often live in homes that are what we call energy inefficient, especially if they were built a long time ago. However, even if a building considered an energy-inefficient building were fitted with a heat pump capable of effectively heating the outside air in winter or cooling it in summer, this would not necessarily ensure the building's energy efficiency. Heat pumps certainly provide lower-income households with a certain level of comfort, but they do not enable eco-efficiency targets to be met.

This is where we need to ensure, for example, that landlords see the benefit of implementing such measures. At present, landlords often fail to see this, particularly those who own a small number of units. In Quebec, we have the highest concentration of small landlords, but also the most dilapidated housing stock in Canada. Consequently, these properties do not necessarily meet people's needs. However, it is not the tenants who will take the necessary steps to ensure their accommodation complies with standards. Rather, landlords need to see the benefits of renovating a property and recognize the drawbacks of not doing so. There must be sufficient incentives for them to take action.

This obviously requires measures specific to the rental sector, but there must also be a budget large enough to cover the costs of rectifying issues when renovating a building's envelope. Carrying out work on a building's roof, drains, waterproofing, doors and windows is costly. In this regard, substantial support is needed. We must also ensure that the costs are not passed on, for example, directly to households or tenants, who are often on low incomes.

[Patrick Bonin, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Some have criticized this or suggested that it might have been better for the federal funds to be channelled to Hydro-Québec, which manages programs tailored to the reality of Quebec and oversees their planning.

Do you have a view on this? It varies from province to province, of course.

[Isabelle Demers]

Hydro-Québec has introduced several programs that are positive, but which also have certain limitations. There is no such thing as a perfect program. What is needed, however, is a shared vision that will promote energy-efficient renovation, rather than merely accessories, which in themselves lead to better energy performance.

That is where the difference lies. We can choose to be more efficient while continuing to consume the same amount, or we can consume less without it being noticeable, and this will essentially benefit everyone, as we will be able to resell the energy that has not been wasted, at a better rate, to industries that need it. This will likely involve a combination of government programs at provincial and federal levels, of course, and municipal measures that support such programs. At the moment, local authorities are not very active in this area. In any case, they are not active enough.

[Patrick Bonin, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Speaking of local authorities, you mentioned the energy-efficiency funding scheme for property, known as a PACE-type model. Unfortunately, I can't recall the French acronym.

[Isabelle Demers]

I can't think of it either, I'm sorry.

[Patrick Bonin, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I don't know if there is one.

Would that be relevant for Quebec? I don't think Quebec has such a model. You mentioned that there were pilot projects in Quebec. Is there a reason why we do not have this model in Quebec?

[Isabelle Demers]

This program would be highly relevant for Quebec. In fact, it would be relevant for all local authorities wishing to take advantage of it, as it acts as a catalyst for energy-efficient refurbishment. It is also a program that allows for significant scaling up and presents virtually no risk. Indeed, the lender is not at risk as they are not lending to an individual, but to a building, which remains in place. It also helps to limit the adverse effects that are often feared. When grants are awarded, tax breaks offered or loans provided, there is a fear that individuals might enrich themselves at the expense of collective funds or loans. This program helps to circumvent that effect.

This program certainly has a place in Quebec. It remains to be seen whether the new government in Quebec will be in favour of this type of program. Steps are certainly being taken to that end. It is a program that has proven its worth.

[Patrick Bonin, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

You mentioned pilot projects, which are being carried out in Quebec, I believe. Is there an element of innovation involved, or is it the same as what is being done in Alberta? Is there anything we can learn from these pilot projects?

[Isabelle Demers]

There is certainly an element of innovation in relation to the program in Alberta, because Alberta's housing stock is, after all, different from that of Quebec, if only because it is more recent than Quebec's. Furthermore, Alberta's housing stock generally comprises more single-family dwellings than that of Quebec.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shannon Miedema]

We are out of time.