Evidence of meeting #50 for Environment and Sustainable Development in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was building.
A recording is available from Parliament.
General Director, Greater Montreal Climate Funds
I think I could refer you to someone who works on the file more, namely Mathieu Gillet from Ecohome. He could tell you a bit more about that.
Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC
It would be a pleasure. I also encourage you to submit this information in writing. It's always useful for us.
We saw that the federal government recently implemented a heat pump program. In Quebec, there are also grants through Hydro‑Québec. Those do indeed concern heat pumps, among other things, but also electric thermal storage systems, which are actually subsidized to the tune of several thousand dollars. That doesn't exist at the federal level.
Do you think initiatives such as funding for electric thermal storage systems are worthwhile?
General Director, Greater Montreal Climate Funds
In fact, let us be clear about something: When it comes to the multi-residential program, right now, when a multiplex owner sends us an application, we're agnostic when it comes to technology. We will look at all available technologies to improve energy efficiency and performance and to get oil and gas out of the building. An electric thermal storage system is one of those technologies. I would say that it's important to be technologically agnostic.
I would also say that, even in terms of the grants we provide, they're very technology-focused, but we could instead target energy performance or a goal, an energy target, through the grant programs.
That said, it's a good option to have. It depends on the application and use of the technology in question. Now, those are more technical details, but it's a case-by-case basis.
Bloc
Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC
Okay.
You mentioned that it's necessary to get fossil fuels out of buildings. Do you have a position on whether we need to quickly or gradually transition away from fossil fuels if we're serious about reducing emissions, particularly in terms of buildings?
General Director, Greater Montreal Climate Funds
Actually, yes. The MultiRés program was originally designed to remove fuel oil and natural gas from buildings. The goal is precisely to phase them out. As stated in the texts, it was even agreed at COP 29 that the fossil fuel industry needed to be phased out to make it possible to meet greenhouse gas reduction targets. In addition, all the programs we're implementing aim to accelerate decarbonization. It's related to the phase-out of fossil fuels.
Bloc
Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC
The energy sector often faces challenges with managing peak periods. Quebec has a program, or at least an initiative, that's described as dual energy. What I'm particularly interested in is dual energy when there are already gas plants, for example, or gas heating in a building. Dual-energy programs make it possible for existing facilities to add heat pumps, for example, and reduce gas consumption by more than 70%.
When it comes to any gas heating systems that currently exist and haven't reached the end of their useful lives, do you think it would be best to quickly roll out heat pumps or other measures that can reduce the demand for gas by nearly 70% overnight?
General Director, Greater Montreal Climate Funds
In fact, any technology that reduces our consumption of oil and gas or fossil fuels is a good strategy. That means that the dual-energy approach, in some cases—not all cases—is very appropriate for reducing natural gas consumption by more than 70%, as you said, while maintaining electrification in the long term. In other words, this gets done when the furnace needs replacing. Dual energy is introduced, but it's made sure that the electrical installation is already in place so that it's possible to move on to the full electrification of the building. It's often a step that can be taken quickly to reduce demand now, reduce the carbon footprint and, at the same time, increase the building's energy efficiency.
Bloc
Patrick Bonin Bloc Repentigny, QC
I'm a bit surprised to hear you say that a furnace gets replaced if it's at the end of its life, because a number of authorities say that new furnaces should no longer be added. The Government of Quebec is moving in that direction. We're talking about a modern furnace that still has some life, then. I just want to clarify what you're telling me. If it's at the end of its life, ideally, it's time to move to electrification.
General Director, Greater Montreal Climate Funds
Indeed, electrification must be prioritized above all else.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shannon Miedema
Thank you very much, Mr. Bonin.
Mr. Reynolds, it's over to you for five minutes.
Conservative
Colin Reynolds Conservative Elmwood—Transcona, MB
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you, witnesses, for coming here today.
Ms. Elbrecht, under the greener homes affordability grants, prior to any funds being approved, are energy assessments done on people's homes in general on the insulation, the outside, the windows and all of those sorts of things? Are they done before the approval of funds?
Senior Policy Advisor, Clean Energy Canada
The program is implemented slightly differently in every province where it's active. It depends on the delivery partner the federal government works with.
Generally, there is an on-the-spot assessment of what improvements would be most beneficial to the household and what would cut energy bills the most. That usually includes an energy assessment.
Conservative
Colin Reynolds Conservative Elmwood—Transcona, MB
They do that in Manitoba, actually. Before they approve you for any funding at all, Manitoba Hydro will do a full energy assessment.
A couple of previous witnesses talked about getting windows or heat pumps done and the efficiency of a home. You can get new windows and doors, but homes that were built prior to roughly 1980 have two-by-four exterior walls, which have only R-14 insulation. You could put a heat pump in, but it's not going to function to the best efficiency it really could.
Do you know the average cost of an install for a heat pump for, say, a 1,200-square-foot home? I know they vary quite a bit.
Senior Policy Advisor, Clean Energy Canada
I don't have the numbers in front of me—I could send you what I have—but it really depends on the size of the heat pump, the size of the home and the heating load, which, as you say, is dependent on insulation and airtightness, as well as on outside temperatures. You're really talking anywhere between $5,000 and $15,000.
Conservative
Colin Reynolds Conservative Elmwood—Transcona, MB
Do you know the cost of retrofitting just a furnace? If you had a gas furnace that had to be replaced, do you know how much the change-out would be?
Senior Policy Advisor, Clean Energy Canada
Again, you're talking about different heating loads, different sizes and different markets, but it's probably closer to $7,000 to $8,000.
I would call a local HVAC company if you wanted a more certain answer.
Conservative
Colin Reynolds Conservative Elmwood—Transcona, MB
My next question is for Mr. Thornell.
Under your program, what kinds of retrofits would qualify?
Manager, Programs and Operations, Ottawa Climate Action Fund
Are you referring to the City of Ottawa program that I mentioned? I don't work there anymore.
Manager, Programs and Operations, Ottawa Climate Action Fund
That program was fairly comprehensive. It essentially looked at anything, including the building envelope and HVAC. It also included some climate adaptation measures.
Notably—this is another thing that came up with the previous witnesses—it also covered the cost of electrical service upgrade, should that be necessary. You were able to finance that over a 20-year period, which helped a lot with that upfront cost that was discussed.
It was fairly comprehensive. There were also some water-saving measures, home energy storage and EV chargers. It was pretty much the whole kit and caboodle.
Conservative
Colin Reynolds Conservative Elmwood—Transcona, MB
Are you working primarily with commercial clients or residential clients?
Manager, Programs and Operations, Ottawa Climate Action Fund
That program with the City of Ottawa—I'm no longer there—was strictly for small residential property owners.
Conservative
Colin Reynolds Conservative Elmwood—Transcona, MB
Were there any particular projects that were prioritized and would receive, say, 80% funding versus a particular retrofit that would receive only 20% funding?
Manager, Programs and Operations, Ottawa Climate Action Fund
The amount of funding available to the property owner was dependent on the property valuation, because that's the information the city can readily, easily and quickly access. There was a calculation based on that. There was a set-aside for low-income housing residents, and they could access a different suite of supports. We set aside 0% loan capital for them to access as well.
It was variable, based on the valuation of the property in terms of how much could be accessed, but up to 100% of the costs could be covered.