Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 8th, 2007

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Newton—North Delta, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question, again, will be to IMS. I will continue where Mr. Pearson left off.

When it comes to long-term planning, I can see why these definitions of work product and personal information are very important. From a business perspective, I can see where their case is covered.

I wonder how all this work that IMS does would help the consumers in a small community like Mr. Tilson's. How are you helping communities like that? Are there any benefits?

[Gary Fabian]

I think that's a perfect example of where the IMS data, the availability of such a comprehensive database—and those were some of the issues I cited in my opening remarks.

We've done extensive work in the research community on specific diseases such as the treatment of infection and antibiotics. There was an educational program launched in Alberta, called “Do Bugs Need Drugs?”, and they needed comprehensive and authoritative information to find out if the program was actually working. We were able to provide the small community with information about whether the program was actually working and whether there was a change in the general consumption of anti-infectives. It was very simple things, such as teaching people to wash their hands, cleanliness and things like that, right up to not asking your doctor for an anti-infective every time you visit because you have a sore throat.

Without our information they weren't able to tell if people's habits were changing, whether physicians were prescribing differently, and whether people were taking fewer anti-infectives. That's a very good example of one that worked in a small community.

Similarly, we did extensive work for the Collège des médecins in the province of Quebec on the use of ritalin in children. They had no supporting information about that. It was a perfect example. You had educational and health issues, with children, physicians, and parents involved. They needed strong empirical evidence, and we were able to provide it.

Without the kind of basic information we collect, you wouldn't be able to provide that. Nobody else has it. The governments don't have it and no other research organization has it.

[Sukh Dhaliwal, Liberal, Newton—North Delta, BC]

That answers my question, Mr. Tilson. Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, David Tilson]

Thank you.

Madam Lavallée.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Let me come back to your definition of work products. And I quote: “[...] information prepared or collected by an individual or group of individuals as a part of the... responsibilities [...]”

I will omit reading it out. I have a question for Mr. Carey of the National Association for Information Destruction - Canada.

Does this definition cover the kind of work products that you have? When you receive documents for shredding or destroying by some method, can you say that you are receiving work products?

[Robert Johnson]

Our members provide service in a relatively amoral and antiseptic environment. We are contracted to destroy media containing information. We have no concern about what is on that medium other than that the client who hired the member wants it to be properly destroyed. So we really don't know whether it's competitive information they want to have destroyed, personal information about their customers, or it's just the way they've chosen to get rid of all of their media so that no one ever sees it when its destroyed, and they know its fate. The meta-information that may be on that, or what the information is, is really of no issue to us once we've been contracted to destroy it.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Nevertheless, the documents that you receive do contain information prepared or collected by an individual or group as a part of the responsibilities related to their employment or business. Am I right?

[Robert Johnson]

Yes.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Therefore, this is the definition of work products that you have adopted, is it not?

[Robert Johnson]

Quite respectfully, I do not think the distinction between private information, personal information, or work product is applicable to our situation, because we provide those services that we provide only because the client asked us to do it. In a perfect environment, which we try to create, our employees never see the information and don't know what it is. So for us it's in some respects all work product, because we have no regard at all for what is on the materials. We handle it all very securely because that's what the client wants us to do. We have no idea what really is on the medium or where it comes from.

[Dave Carey]

We would also destroy material that's not under that definition.

[Robert Johnson]

Maybe the better way to look at it is that we consider everything we take, because that's our charter, as highly confidential and private, of the utmost privacy. It may not be. It may be work product that is totally stripped of all identifying information about individuals. That is not our decision to make. We were hired to treat it as confidentially as possible, and that's what we do.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

My question is for the representatives of IMS Health Canada.

You often use prescriptions as an example. To begin with, does every pharmacist agree to give you information on prescriptions? Are there any who refuse? Do they have the right to refuse?

[Gary Fabian]

They have the right to refuse.

Our work consists of sampling. There are more than 7,500 pharmacies in Canada. We cannot gather information from all of them because it is not necessary and because we could not afford it. Our company's work consists in making projections in view of universal levels.

In answer to your specific question, pharmacists are under no obligation to provide us with information if they do not wish to do so.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

You gather information from health professionals, like pharmacists.

[Gary Fabian]

Yes.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

From physicians?

[Gary Fabian]

Yes.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

And how about dentists?

[Gary Fabian]

If a dentist prescribes a drug.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Are drugs your main focus?

[Gary Fabian]

Basically, they are.

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

If I understand correctly, the people who object to your definition are health professionals who might be identified through your work. Could they be identified?

[Gary Fabian]

Do you mean health professionals such as physicians?

[Carole Lavallée, Bloc, Saint-Bruno—Saint-Hubert, QC]

Let us say that you might notice that a physician is prescribing Valium to all his patients.