Evidence of meeting #9 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was requests.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jim Alexander  Deputy Chief Information Officer, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat
Donald Lemieux  Executive Director, Information, Privacy and Security Policy, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat
Richard Rumas  Clerk of the Committee, Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics

5:10 p.m.

Executive Director, Information, Privacy and Security Policy, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat

Donald Lemieux

Mr. Chairman, we are aware of the studies carried out by Mr. Roberts. If you look at the analysis, in terms of his references to ATIP requests -- and I want you to know I'm not questioning his credentials as a university professor -- you often see that requesters, reporters and the media ask questions on subjects that may not be routine. Is it necessarily because it's a reporter, a politician or someone else making the access request that there is this delay, or it is because it may be a complex issue?

The other thing I would like to add is that, under the Access to Information Act, the Information Access Office has 30 days to process the access request or, under section 9 of the Access to Information Act, it can ask for extensions. The coordinator has to ascertain the complexity of the file request within a 30-day timeframe. Under the current regime set out in the Act, we cannot say, after 45 days, for example, that we improperly established the timeframe for a response. We said it should take 60 days, but really it's going to take 90 days. We have to consult an embassy in another country or go through another process. So, it becomes very complicated. And based on the regime that is currently in place, we are somewhat bound by the extension that we request right from the outset. That may be one of the factors contributing to the fact that the Access to Information Office makes mistakes or may be late responding, where very complex files are concerned. That is one of the important factors.

In other jurisdictions, that may not be the case. But we cannot come back after the fact and say that we realized it was much more complicated than we originally thought, that there is a whole avenue we didn't see initially, and ask for a second opportunity to revise our estimate. That is not the case. So, as I say, we are somewhat bound by the timeframe that we set at the beginning of the process.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

Merci.

Mr. Peterson.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Peterson Liberal Willowdale, ON

Do you have any sense of how often a request of identity is passed on to the minister?

5:15 p.m.

Deputy Chief Information Officer, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat

Jim Alexander

We have no statistics on that whatsoever. It's not information we have tried to gather and it's not information that comes our way. We're not aware that it's a regular practice. On the other hand, it's not something we are surveying on.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Peterson Liberal Willowdale, ON

But you've informed all your ATIP community that they do have a right to pass this information on to the minister.

5:15 p.m.

Deputy Chief Information Officer, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat

Jim Alexander

If I can clarify, Mr. Chair, in terms of the delegated instruments, the delegation and how it flows there, it's very clear that because the person higher on the chain is the one who's actually responsible and accountable, even if it's been delegated, then implicitly there's a knowledge of it. To my knowledge--and Mr. Lemieux has a longer history than I do--we have never informed that it's.... I'll call it that “positive communication” that you indicated. We have never gone forward to ATIP coordinators to say it's okay. The communication that we sent out was very pointed, to say that the information is there and is governed by the Privacy Act, and if they have questions about that, they're the coordinators--or come to us.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Peterson Liberal Willowdale, ON

All the ATIP officers would know exactly what Mr. Martin knows. What you told us today is that the ministers do have a right to find out the identity of the requester.

5:15 p.m.

Deputy Chief Information Officer, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat

Jim Alexander

The ATIP officers very clearly would know what their rights and obligations are under the access to information legislation and the privacy legislation.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Peterson Liberal Willowdale, ON

That is, they would know they have the right to tell the minister.

5:15 p.m.

Deputy Chief Information Officer, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat

Jim Alexander

They would know they have the right to indicate to anyone in the delegation chain if asked who the requester is, because that person up top is the one who is accountable for the administration of it. That includes the administration and the safeguarding of the information. Even if that minister does get it, that minister is still bound by the privacy legislation that exists.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Peterson Liberal Willowdale, ON

Do you believe a requester's identity should be made known to the minister?

5:15 p.m.

Deputy Chief Information Officer, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat

Jim Alexander

That's a--

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

I'm sorry, Mr. Peterson, are you asking the witness for his personal opinion? Because he's here as a department head.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Peterson Liberal Willowdale, ON

Treasury Board runs this whole program, and I think we can benefit a great deal from your experience. One of the reasons for not disclosing the name of a requester is that there could be retribution taken against this individual in many ways. I'm sure ministers wouldn't, but the potential is there.

So I'm asking you, based on your experience in administering this, with a view to allowing access without retribution, do you feel it would be a good idea to preclude any of the minister's staff or the minister from learning the name of a requester?

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

Go ahead, please, Mr. Alexander.

5:15 p.m.

Deputy Chief Information Officer, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat

Jim Alexander

Mr. Chair, in response to that, as a public servant, my duty and my obligation is to administer the laws and the legislation as passed by Parliament.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Peterson Liberal Willowdale, ON

But Parliament is omniscient. They're always right.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

I guess what Mr. Peterson is asking you is whether in your personal opinion you think the act should be amended in some way to indicate that the personal name of a requester should not be made available to the minister. If you don't have a personal opinion, don't hesitate to say so.

5:20 p.m.

Deputy Chief Information Officer, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat

Jim Alexander

Mr. Chair, on a subject like that, I don't have a personal opinion, and I think that's really a policy decision that the government and parliamentarians can and do, from time to time, engage in.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

It's certainly an issue we've identified here, and we, as a committee if we chose to, could make certain recommendations, obviously.

Go ahead, Mr. Peterson.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Peterson Liberal Willowdale, ON

If the minister for the Treasury Board, Mr. Baird, came to you and said we want the best law possible, I can't imagine there's anybody better qualified than you are, as the people responsible for this whole area, to suggest changes to the minister.

5:20 p.m.

Deputy Chief Information Officer, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat

Jim Alexander

There is a very good, strong ATIP community, and with our colleagues in Justice we provide advice to the minister when we are asked about things like this. We have in the past and will continue to do so.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Jim Peterson Liberal Willowdale, ON

But you'd rather not share that advice with us today.

5:20 p.m.

Deputy Chief Information Officer, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat

Jim Alexander

That's correct, Mr. Chair.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Tom Wappel

I guess you would agree with Mr. Peterson's characterization that you're one of the very best people to give advice to the minister on this subject.