Evidence of meeting #49 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was elections.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Lemieux Conservative Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON
Yes, it just has to do with your comments regarding my questioning.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
That's debate, sir, not a point of order.
We'll have Mr. Proulx, please, for five minutes.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good afternoon, Mr. Mayrand and Mr. Bernier. Thank you for being with us this afternoon. I will be quick.
Yesterday, we heard witnesses from Retail Media. They explained the kind of invoicing they had used for the Conservative Party. At one point, there were questions about how taxes...
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
I listened to you. Would you mind listening to me, Pierre? Thank you.
... both federal and provincial, were invoiced. On one invoice that you are certainly familiar with, dated January 1, 2006, there was a whole list of ridings all across the country, except Quebec, because in Quebec, it was explained, the invoicing was done differently. That invoice showed a figure of $591,411, with federal tax in the amount of $41,398.77 added, under number 886334549. We wondered how the various provincial taxes could be distinguished, since they are not necessarily uniform across the country, and they are also not collected uniformly. For example, in the Maritimes, they do it differently.
Overnight, I examined the documents and I found charges of $7,385.50 in the invoice, that would apply to the riding of Cardigan in Prince Edward Island.
The people from Retail Media told us yesterday that, in their view, the provincial taxes were included in the amounts billed before the GST, the federal tax, was applied. However, when I examine the return by the official agent in Cardigan, there are no charges that apply to Retail Media. I assume, Mr. Mayrand, that that part of the $7,385.50 invoice was paid somewhere else.
If that amount was paid somewhere other than in Prince Edward Island, how can you connect the credits that may have been given and the taxes that may have been billed in other parts of the country? In other words, what I am asking you is how you were able to consolidate these various amounts without having the individual invoices, particularly in the case of this $7,385.50, which were not reported in the return by the official agent in Cardigan?
12:50 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
I can simply talk about it in general terms. First, I am not intimately familiar with each of the cases. Tax questions, normally, are of more interest to Revenue Canada or the relevant tax authorities. In the cases that concern us, obviously, that question was less important because the expenses were rejected, refused. All sorts of other questions come up in a particular case, but it did not seem to us to be essential in this case, as we dealt with it.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
Okay. Before halting the refunds, you accepted some returns and you even issued some 60 percent refunds. I assume that some of them were in Quebec. The invoicing in Quebec, according to what Retail Media told us, was done by individual county. At the bottom of the invoice, there is a different allocation, as I was saying; that is, there is the amount of the invoice, and the federal tax and provincial tax are added, and a number is given, both for the federal tax and for the provincial tax, which is always the same one.
I assume, but perhaps you can give me an answer, that the tax number is Retail Media's tax number. You can't answer?
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
Okay. I have just one brief question to ask you. If memory serves, you undertook to provide the committee... You had said that the refunds, the famous 60 percent, had been paid to some candidates and MPs before you put a halt to it. You gave us a list of MPs, ones who were elected, but you didn't provide us... You had told us you gave refunds to 17 Conservative Party candidates.
Do you recall providing that list to the committee?
12:50 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
I think it is in the letter I sent the committee last week. The table on page 8 shows the 17 candidates, and we put an asterisk beside the ones who were identified by the committee as being public office-holders.
12:50 p.m.
Liberal
Marcel Proulx Liberal Hull—Aylmer, QC
So it wasn't just elected members, but also candidates who were not elected.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Mayrand, first I want to go back to something Mr. Martin had indicated. He was basically saying we've done something other parties haven't. And I just want to refer to an article written by Mr. Robin Sears. He's the former NDP campaign director. He wrote an article entitled “Elections Canada is the real scandal”, which ran in The Globe and Mail.
He said a number of things. For one, he said:
For 30 years, parties have transferred money to candidates. Then they take some of it from everyone to support central campaign costs. Look at any party's filings and the flows are recorded for all to see. Stéphane Dion's 2006 campaign filing shows money moving in and out on the same day. Various New Democrats' filings reveal that in their more centralist structure, more money flows up than down, but they too mix national and local spending freely.
He goes on to write:
...Elections Canada's very un-Canadian behaviour is unacceptable in a democracy. Without a better argument and evidence, Elections Canada will lose the legal battle, and then we will all pay the cost politically. The bad blood caused by its storm-trooper tactics has infected the political system. Many Liberals and New Democrats are horrified by all of this. They know it could be their turn next.
Are you concerned about how many Canadians are right now questioning the impartiality of Elections Canada? Does the reputation of Elections Canada in this concern you, and that an NDP campaign manager would write that? This isn't us saying that.
We have a point of order.
12:55 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
No, I have indicated I want to hear it after. I don't want it to interfere with your question or the answer.
Carry on.
12:55 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Well, I generally don't comment on media or reports. I will simply point out that before forming an opinion, I think everyone should be sure of looking at all the facts and circumstances. And again, the courts will decide regarding this matter in due course.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
That doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you're concerned about the perception of Elections Canada. We've read numerous examples of the NDP that back up exactly what Mr. Sears has said. He also says that Elections Canada decided last year to retroactively change its interpretation to try to force a separation between a party and its candidate's spending.
Now, based on his commentary and his being a former NDP campaign director, are you going to look into the practices of the NDP, the ones we have come out and spoken about—for example, with Libby Davies or Olivia Chow? Are you going to look into their actions? It has nothing to do with this case. Surely you can comment on that.
12:55 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
What tells you we're not looking into it?
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
12:55 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
I do not comment specifically on specific files.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
Okay, so I can assume by your comment that you are looking at those.
12:55 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
I think if you were to look at our website, you would see that the report of the individual you mentioned has not been posted as reviewed, which shows that it is still under review.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
Dean Del Mastro Conservative Peterborough, ON
Thank you, Mr. Mayrand.
Mr. Mayrand, I notice, for example, that the return of Mr. Hubbard, who is part of this committee, at one point was not finalized through Elections Canada, and I can't confirm that it is as of today.
Can you confirm that you may be looking at some of the election filings of the Liberal Party, as well, for having exercised the same practice?
12:55 p.m.
Conservative