Information & Ethics Committee on Aug. 14th, 2008

[Marc Mayrand]

Unless directed by the committee, I'm not inclined to comment, if you're referring to the four situations I mentioned in my letter. I'm not inclined to comment on those four files or situations that are still under review.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

I'd like to ask the committee to direct Mr. Mayrand to respond to the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

The question is in regard to a specific candidate or candidates. I'm pretty sure that every party has candidates from the past election who have not been settled and who have nothing to do with the in-and-out issue.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

I have a motion on the floor.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

I understand that.

I want members to understand. Mr. Mayrand has sworn testimony that he looked at both the 2004 and 2006 elections and found that no other party, other than the Conservative Party, participated in this.

The question for the committee is that Mr. Del Mastro would like to direct Mr. Mayrand to answer the question about Mr. Hubbard and other files that seem to have nothing to do with the motion before us. But that's his request.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

What has happened to my point of order, Mr. Chair?

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

I put a motion on the floor.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

At this point I'm going to rule that it's out of order with regard to the mandate of the committee. Thank you.

[An hon. member]

I challenge the chair's ruling.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Okay. We'll call that vote now.

(Ruling of the chair sustained: yeas 6; nays 5)

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

We'll move now to Mr. Nadeau.

I apologize. Mr. Proulx had a point of order that I deferred until Mr. Del Mastro had completed his intervention so we wouldn't interfere with him.

Mr. Proulx is next, on a point of order.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

To my knowledge, Mr. Sears is a spokesperson for Mr. Brian Mulroney. So Mr. Del Mastro is misleading the committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Mr. Proulx, that's a matter of debate, not a point of order.

Now we'll go to Mr. Nadeau, s'il vous plaît, for five minutes.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Mayrand, Mr. Bernier, good afternoon.

From the standpoint of the spending mechanism, if Conservative candidates from a region like Quebec City for example—think about a particular election—want to band together to pay for an ad, what do they have to do so that it will be recognized as local advertising?

[Marc Mayrand]

That is a little hypothetical. Again, you have to be sure, and this is fundamental, that each candidate incurs and pays a fair share of the costs associated with the arrangement they want to make, whether for advertising or for other services. The same rule still applies.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

This is when they want to arrange it as a group. So if I understand correctly, that is what was not done, by your analysis, in the Quebec City region in the last election.

[Marc Mayrand]

I have said several times at this point: I am not satisfied that the expenses claimed were actually incurred by the candidates, in the amounts claimed.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

That answers my question.

To take another tack, some people have been brave enough to appear before the committee. In fact, they were not merely brave, they did their duty by coming to answer questions from the members of this committee.

Personally, I saw that at some point, and this was also the opinion of some candidates and official agents, in terms of the orders they had received from their party for handling certain cases that included transfers of funds, etc., they were not given any explanation. They were told that it was fine, not to worry, everything would be spic and span, there would not be any problems, it will be a piece of cake.

So in my opinion the Conservative Party used these people, by exploiting their naiveté, or their lack of familiarity with all of the laws.

My question is for Elections Canada. Would it be possible for you to allow official agents... We know there are a lot, because there are a number of parties, and so a number of candidates, including some independents. Would it be possible for you to ensure—perhaps that is too strong a word—or at least to allow, to be democratic and in the sense that everybody is given an equal opportunity, to offer training throughout Quebec and Canada so that these people can get as good a grasp as possible, particularly of the important aspects—and I know that the law is important in itself—so that all official agents and candidates, if indeed they wanted to attend, could get non-partisan training from Elections Canada?

Would it be possible to reach all these people? You are doing it at present. Would it be possible to extend that process, to avoid finding ourselves in situations like the ones we are talking about this week?

[Marc Mayrand]

We are already making efforts to do this, but there are various problems, the geographic problem being one, in the sense that we have huge areas to cover.

The other problem relates specifically to candidates' agents. Often, they are only appointed right before or right after the election campaign begins. Right there, in terms of the things they have to prioritize, it is more difficult for them to free up time. Some of them are appointed at the last minute.

That being said, we hold sessions regularly in places across the country. We mainly, but not exclusively, target them at agents in riding associations that have some permanence. In addition to the training sessions offered regularly across Canada, we also offer the parties an opportunity when they have meetings to hold a training session at the meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Merci.

Mr. Goodyear, please.

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome, Monsieur Mayrand.

I'm going to read something from an affidavit, and this is based on some documents from Elections Canada.

According to the records from Elections Canada and this signed court document, almost all Liberal Party candidates' expense reports obtained from Elections Canada “included significant invoices to local campaigns for goods and services provided by the...national party”. Rarely did any of these invoices have itemization, rarely did they set out the content—

[Karen Redman, Liberal, Kitchener Centre, ON]

I have a point of order.

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

—of the advertising in terms of whether they were national or local, although sometimes the invoices actually admitted they were national expenses.

Now, of the names on the list, the one that pops out right away is Stéphane Dion.

I want to suggest too, however, that in another part of this same court document, Elections Canada's records of invoices of local campaigns from various forms of publicity material and advertising—radio and television, etc.—all were accepted by Elections Canada. The invoices and related documentation for such advertising rarely set out the content of the advertising, in terms of whether it was national or local, although sometimes, as I've indicated, it did indicate that it was national.

The documentation indicates that Elections Canada never suggested, let alone took a position, that the local campaigns of this party, despite the fact that there was a lack of information about the content, or despite the fact that it even indicated straight up that it was national in extent but expensed at the local level....

It further goes on to say that there was absence of full documentation, that some of the ads had no tag lines on them, that official agents did not preauthorize verbally or in writing any of this stuff. And the names that stand out on that list are Stéphane Dion, Mark Holland, Ralph Goodale.... I could keep reading, but my time's limited.

These are examples of parties transferring expenses, which you have said is not allowed, and for doing which you have singled out one party. And of course, this is the essence of the interpretive challenge before the court.

Can you tell me if there are any files still open? Without maybe naming the names—I'm going to ask you that in a minute—are there any files still open? You mentioned the NDP. You didn't say they were being investigated, but you certainly implied that you haven't shut that door yet. Have you shut the door on these Liberals? Have you shut the door on the Bloc entirely?

[Marc Mayrand]

First of all, I'm not sure what document you're referring to. I don't have it in front of me. I'm not sure it seems to be--

[Gary Goodyear, Conservative, Cambridge, ON]

Please keep going or stop my clock.