Evidence of meeting #29 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was product.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Managing Director and Head of Google Canada, Google Inc.
We're working on what that timeframe might be, and rather than give you an arbitrary number I'd rather give you a precise answer. But it's in Google's best interest to make it as short as possible.
We're committed to meeting privacy concerns. We need the data for its intended purpose--to make the product better. As soon as we don't need it any more, our intention is to permanently blur it.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
Has a timeline been imposed by any other jurisdiction, to your knowledge, where Google is offering this service?
Managing Director and Head of Google Canada, Google Inc.
Not to my knowledge.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
I understand that it's not just Street View and Street Scene that use this process, that most cartography now involves a similar kind of process in which images are taken and used in a map-making process. Are you aware of that, that there are other folks using similar technology, and how common is that?
Managing Director and Head of Google Canada, Google Inc.
What we're talking about here is an innovation in digital cartography. Goggle's view is that we're making maps better, we're making it easier to find things. But there are many organizations that take street-level images. There are many mapping infrastructure companies that take similar photos. Companies like Maptech and Tele Atlas do very similar things from a data collection and capture point of view. I can't speak to their blurring technology or their take-down technology, but the great innovation that Google brings is marrying these images with topographical maps to make direction-finding easier.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
Thank you for coming.
I continue to believe that the potential for this technology is enormous as long as it is applied in a way that respects four key conditions. One is the blurring of faces and licence plates. Second is the protection of sensitive locations, like clinics and women's shelters. Third is that there is adequate public notification before the pictures are taken. And fourth is that the storage of the images does not violate our commercial privacy laws with respect to keeping information about people for which those people have not given consent.
I'm going to start with the first issue, which is blurring, and I'm going to share with you a story a constituent offered me. He told me this story the same day I witnessed the Google street camera driving through a neighbouring community called Riverside South, which is a suburban community here in Ottawa, in my riding. He said, and I quote:
I'm selling my father's old home, my father's and my mother's old house, and I have got the front rooms completely stripped and the curtains off the windows, but no one can see. None of my neighbours can see into my house at that level, and I didn't think someone would see me. Anyway, this morning I got up and had a shower, and I walked out of my washroom naked. And just as I looked over, the Google cam was coming by our second floor like a snorkel peeking into the second floor of my house.
He went on to say, “I don't know if it can actually see through windows, I'm sure it can, but I'm on Google naked now for my street. This is bad.”
This fellow has given me authorization to share his name. His name is Robert White, and the residence in question was 835 Stansted Road.
What assurances can you give Mr. White that he will not become an international sex symbol?
Managing Director and Head of Google Canada, Google Inc.
The best way to address that is to simply say that the cameras we employ aren't designed to look inside buildings. The photography and the photographic ability isn't that good. Google is not seeing inside buildings.
The broader picture, to remind the committee, is that the intended use is to improve mapping and capture the facades of publicly accessible, available buildings and landmarks. There is no need to see inside; it's not in the product definition to do that, and Google doesn't do it.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
Okay. The photo in question was taken on April 30, so perhaps we can work with you to make sure there are no mistakes and nothing like this ends up online.
I have looked online, and there's a website dedicated to pulling images from Google Street View and showing the detail that those images can portray. It's called weburbanist.com. They have discovered numerous Google shots from Street View where the faces and images are clear enough to be discerned. I will share them with you at the end of the meeting.
How foolproof is your blurring technology?
Managing Director and Head of Google Canada, Google Inc.
I can't speak to the site in question; I haven't seen it. I can't speak to the accuracy or quality of those photos either. I will say that we are highly confident, having rolled out this product in nine countries to date, that we have high quality and really strong technology. So in almost all cases the product does exactly what it's intended to do, and in the very rare cases where it doesn't do what it's intended to do we have our quick and easy take-down policy.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
I congratulate you for doing that. The challenge, though, is that some people might not know they are in these images, and would not be able to have them removed.
What do you have to say about that, given that Canada's commercial privacy laws indicate that no enterprise can have information on any person without that person's consent?
Managing Director and Head of Google Canada, Google Inc.
Again I would step back and paint the picture of the notification and the announcement we made on March 24, 2009, that we would be driving through cities in Canada to gather the photographs for Street View. That announcement was picked up broadly across the country. I think it's safe to say this is probably the most broadcast collection of cartographic images in Canadian history.
Through that announcement we notified the public at large. I think we have an industry-leading take-down policy. If I'm inadvertently captured on the front page of a newspaper, the same way I might be inadvertently captured on Street View, I don't have the recourse that Google offers if I'm captured in a pan shot on broadcast news. I don't have my image blurred, and I don't have the ability to have that image taken down. So I think Google is really trying to lead by example and set the industry standard on privacy protection practice.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
You mentioned journalist images. They are expressly exempt under Canada's commercial privacy laws, as are images for artistic and literary purposes. Do you think your mapping program should be expressly exempt from Canada's commercial privacy laws?
Managing Director and Head of Google Canada, Google Inc.
I'm not a legal expert, so I can't make a legal judgment call and I shouldn't speculate. It's reasonable to assume that, given the history of mapping as an artistic enterprise. Precedent has been set that maps are considered to be a form of artistic expression, so I think there's an argument to be made for that.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Thank you.
On public disclosure, I think quite a number of members of this committee were unaware that Street View even existed until that newspaper article appeared. So what public notice were you required to give, subsequent to having discussions with the Privacy Commissioner?
Managing Director and Head of Google Canada, Google Inc.
We gave notice through the March 24, 2009 announcement. Subsequently, through a website we have recently posted, we have announced the locations where we're driving. So in our minds the requirement to notify has been satisfied. I think we've done a good job trying to balance the notification period and the product development.
Managing Director and Head of Google Canada, Google Inc.
I think we started taking pictures in 2007. However, it's probably more important for the committee to know and understand that we will not be using images taken prior to March 24 in the product. So any images we captured prior to March 24 when we made the national large-scale public announcement won't be used in the product.
Liberal
Lise Zarac Liberal LaSalle—Émard, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
You talk about innovation in mapping, Mr. Lister, but can this really be called mapping? We are talking about images of places that appear. How can you define that as mapping, even in the context of innovation?
Managing Director and Head of Google Canada, Google Inc.
This is an incredibly important innovation in digital cartography. What Google has done extremely well is marry the street-level images with the topographical maps. This provides an entirely new way for people to navigate.
Liberal
Lise Zarac Liberal LaSalle—Émard, QC
You are able to marry images with maps. However, in terms of mapping innovation, I am not sure that could be called a map.
You both said that you comply with privacy legislation that is currently in place. Do you ask for permission from the municipalities where you shoot, in order to ensure that you are complying with laws currently in effect?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canpages Inc.
Perhaps I could answer that question first.
If you don't mind, I would like to come back to your previous question. I think you are right: the term “mapping” is really quite passé. Now we talk about a total immersive experience, which is much more powerful than simply showing maps.
Liberal
Lise Zarac Liberal LaSalle—Émard, QC
My question is about legislation. If you don't mind, Mr. Vincent, I would prefer that we talk about legislation.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canpages Inc.
Yes, of course. In terms of legislation, we have looked at it at a number of different levels, starting with legal support from major Canadian firms, to be sure that we were complying with the law.
Earlier, we talked about our active communication with all privacy commissioners. At this time, they are telling us with certainty that we have done nothing illegal, and it seems to me that they are also supportive of our proactive approach.
As regards the municipalities, we have not specifically requested their permission, but we do inform them of the availability of this information.