Evidence of meeting #31 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was mandate.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mary Dawson  Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Lyne Robinson-Dalpé  Assistant Commissioner, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Nancy Bélanger  General Counsel, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

This is the 31st meeting of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

We have two orders of the day. One is a very brief one, namely committee business dealing with the steering committee report to the full committee; and the second is to consider the annual report of the activities of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner in relation to public office-holders under the Conflict of Interest Act for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2009, referred to our committee on Wednesday, June 17, 2009. The commissioner is with us.

Colleagues, what I would like to do first is to deal with the steering committee report. You have had circulated to you prior to this meeting a calendar of outstanding or pending work, or matters that have occurred subsequent to our return. The committee has reviewed all of those matters and slotted them in. We had a very good meeting—it didn't take very long—and we were unanimous that this would be a good starting point.

Now, as the members know, the committee at any time can propose amendments to its scheduled work, depending on the evolution or development of any other area, as well as any new items. I'm not going to go down the list, but I would indicate to you that there are five meeting days that have no business currently scheduled. They are November 26 and 30, and December 3, 8 and 10. So we do have room for additional work, or maybe amplification of work that is already listed here.

Are there any questions with regard to the steering committee recommendations to the full committee?

If not, is it agreed that we adopt this report?

(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Thank you very much.

Our witness today is Mary Dawson, the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner.

Welcome, Commissioner. It's very nice to see you again. As you can see, we have a couple of new members on our committee. We thought it was important to bring before us all of our commissioners with whom we have matters in common, first of all, to deal with the business at hand, and secondly, to allow the members an opportunity to meet and hear you and to ask you some questions.

Today we're here with regard to your 2008-09 annual report on public office-holders, as referred to our committee.

I understand you have some opening remarks for us. I would first invite you to introduce the colleagues you brought with you and, second, to proceed with your brief statement.

9:05 a.m.

Mary Dawson Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I'm Mary Dawson, the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner.

With me today is Nancy Bélanger, our general counsel; Lyne Robinson-Dalpé, our assistant commissioner, compliance and advisory; and Eppo Maertens, acting assistant commissioner, learning and communications.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Welcome to all.

9:05 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to appear before you today. I am pleased to have this opportunity to speak about my 2008-2009 annual report relating to the Conflict of Interest Act and the work of the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner.

In my annual report I refer to the past year as one of consolidating and strengthening the foundation. Emphasis was placed on applying the act fairly and consistently and on communicating its requirements to public office-holders. My annual report addressed, as well, a number of areas of the act that present challenges. I will briefly outline some of the initiatives undertaken by my office in relation to these areas, but before doing so, I want to summarize our regular day-to-day accomplishments over the past year.

The bulk of the work of my office involves helping reporting public office-holders comply with the act on appointment and remain in compliance throughout their time in office. Some 950 individuals assumed new responsibilities as public office-holders in the last fiscal year, including about 500 reporting public office-holders. New reporting public office-holders go through an initial compliance process that involves submitting a detailed confidential report to my office. These reports are reviewed by staff, who discuss potential conflicts of interest risks with them and outline the steps they must take to comply with the act. Often advisers assist reporting public office-holders with complex arrangements, such as those involving trusts and outside activities. In addition to the initial compliance process, the act requires a formal review of compliance arrangements on an annual basis.

Over the past year, my office contacted over 900 reporting public office-holders to review and, where necessary, update the arrangements they had made previously to comply with the act. Reporting public office-holders are also required to make confidential disclosures and public declarations as needed throughout the term of their appointments. These are required in connection with the receipt of certain gifts, recusals, employment offers, and material changes to matters that need to be reported under the act. In addition, my office regularly receives phone calls, e-mails, and letters from current, former, and potential public office-holders with questions on the application of the act to specific situations.

Responding to these requests for advice is among the most complex aspects of our advisers' work, as most of the questions raised with my office involve situations in which the application of the act is not immediately apparent and for which there are no precedents. I'm particularly proud of the advisory work done by advisers in my office, and I believe it accounts in large measure for the infrequent need to conduct investigations. Between April 1, 2008 and March 31, 2009, I reported findings on three examinations relating to public office-holders. There were four other instances where members of the House of Commons raised concerns with me about possible contraventions of the act by a public office-holder. In each of these cases, I clarified for the members the specific requirements of the act in relation to the questions they raised, and they did not proceed with a formal request.

As noted earlier, one of my priorities over the past year has been to communicate to public office-holders the requirements of the act. My office developed a guideline and several information notices that have been posted on our website. We also held information sessions for ministerial staff and other public office-holders. We redesigned the website to make it more user-friendly, and we improved the public registry that contains the summary statements and public declarations of reporting public office-holders. We've implemented administrative procedures to assist reporting public office-holders who regularly receive gifts. In particular, my office has made formal arrangements with a number of offices, notably ministers' offices, where protocol gifts are frequently received, for regular reporting of gifts every few weeks .

In my annual report I identified a number of areas of the act that present challenges. These include sections relating to monetary penalties, divestment, post employment, and self-initiated examinations.

The act allows me to impose penalties of up to $500 for failures to meet a number of reporting requirements. After developing appropriate processes, including a system of reminder notices, my office implemented the regime in November 2008. Our approach reflects the intent of encouraging compliance with the act's reporting requirements rather than seeking to punish.

In September 2008 I issued one notice of violation, but I did not ultimately impose a monetary penalty in that case. Earlier this month I imposed an administrative monetary penalty for a failure to report the holding of an office in a corporation. I note that there is no penalty in the act for violations other than those involving a failure to report.

With respect to divestment, a second issue addressed in my annual report involves the act's divestment requirements. I noted my ongoing concern about what appears to me to be an over-breadth of the provisions that prohibit reporting public office-holders from holding controlled assets. The prohibition applies to all controlled assets held by a reporting public office-holder whether he or she is a minister, a ministerial staffer, a senior public servant, or a full-time member of a federal board or tribunal, and whether the controlled assets are held personally, in a joint account with a family member, as a trustee for a beneficiary, or as an executor of an estate.

My main concern with this prohibition is that it applies regardless of whether or not the controlled assets in question could place the reporting public officer-holder in a conflict of interest. It would appear that it goes beyond what would be needed to meet the act's stated purpose of minimizing the risk of conflict of interest. The breadth of the prohibition results in a significant number of difficult situations, such as trusts, executorships, and joint accounts.

The third issue I raise in my report involves the act's post-employment provisions. In particular, I note that it's difficult to assess whether reporting public office-holders are meeting their post-employment obligations and, more generally, how effective those provisions are, given a lack of reporting requirements.

A fourth issue I discussed in my annual report relates to my power to self-initiate examinations under the act. This would usually result from information coming to my attention through media reports or sometimes from private individuals. In cases where I consider launching an examination but ultimately decide not to, I cannot make known my reasons for not proceeding. This serves to protect the privacy of public office-holders. However, in cases involving well-publicized and controversial allegations, I find it unfortunate that I'm limited in my ability to make public my reasons for not pursuing a matter.

One last note on that before we begin, though, is that there are a number of complaints brewing. I can only confirm whether I have commenced an investigation under the act and can discuss no details of an investigation while it's ongoing. The report at the end is made public.

Finally, although it's not related to the Conflict of Interest Act, members may wish to know that this Friday, October 23, I will offer an information session on the recent changes to the members' code, which is not what we're talking about today. It was approved last June, but it affects all of you around the table. It will be part of the Library of Parliament's seminar series.

Mr. Chair, I appreciate the committee taking the time to review my report and examine these issues. I am happy to answer any questions you may have.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Thank you kindly, Commissioner.

After two years of getting the situation in order, you have made a great deal of progress. I noted particularly that your website updates are a little more user-friendly, and I know that the members will appreciate the other initiatives you have embarked upon.

To questions now. We will begin with Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, please, for seven minutes.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Dawson, for appearing before the committee once again.

Madam Dawson, as you and all Canadians are aware, there is an ethical debate taking place, raging in the country, that calls into question the very trust that people have for public office-holders, and the public is turning towards us here to find a way to resolve this particular issue. I understand from your commentary that although your title includes the word “ethics”, the mandate of the act, the rules by which you govern your investigations do not encompass that particular area.

You're quite aware of the debate that's taking place around these misrepresentations around phony cheques. You must have looked at this. Is it within your mandate to do an investigation into this particular matter?

9:15 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

I will be undertaking an investigation with respect to this matter. How I will undertake it, I'm not quite certain yet. Apparently there are about 50 things coming in to me; about 10 have arrived. I am going to take a look at the 50 when they arrive, if they arrive, and figure out how to handle them. I may well handle them with one general report.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

I see.

You will be facing some particular challenges as well with the way the current act is written. In your report, do you foresee addressing that particular issue, that perhaps the act needs to be looked at to strengthen the ethical component of what people in the public assume is part of your mandate?

9:20 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mary Dawson

I'm not sure what I'm going to say at this point. I haven't even really started with an investigation yet. I'm still waiting for all the requests. But I have made observations elsewhere in my annual report--which is probably the appropriate place--about the fact that while “ethics” appears in my title, it does not appear in either the act or the code. So it's quite unclear as to the extent to which my mandate extends into ethical issues that are not expressly referred to in either the code or the act. In fact, one would wonder whether it extends there at all. Now, in matters of ethics, the lines are very blurred. One person's ethics are not another person's ethics.

So those are very difficult questions, and I'm still determining exactly what I have to say about that matter.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

And that gets to the nub of the matter here. It seems the government has become quite blurred, in its own particular manner, in the way it proceeds when it comes to ethics. Because there appears perhaps to be a void in the act the way it's currently written.... No one could have foreseen that a government would so abuse its position. Perhaps it may be the role of this committee. Parliamentary committees, after all, do decide the destiny of their investigations and this committee is a committee of ethics. The expectation would be that we would look into ethical lapses. This, in fact, is more than just an ethical lapse. Over 50 of our colleagues on the government side seem to be implicated in this particular matter.

I know we decide our own mandate, but would you make recommendations to our committee on ways that we could strengthen the act so that in the future you would be able to look into these sorts of ethical challenges on the part of elected officials?

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

On a point of order, Mr. Rickford.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

The member just alleged that there were--

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

First of all, in this committee we state what the nature of the point of order is. Is it relevance, is it...?

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

Yes, it is relevance, sorry.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Okay, on a point of order on relevance, please.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

He just mentioned that there were as many as 50 charges. Is he talking about public office-holders for the purposes of the act?

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

I'm sorry, that's not a point of order. We have to be careful about using points of order to get the floor to just make some points. We'll have some questions and you can raise it--

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Greg Rickford Conservative Kenora, ON

I'm not using it to make a point.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

It's not a point of order.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON

I do have a point of order.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

On a point of order, Mr. Poilievre.

The nature, please?

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON

Yes, relevance.

You have ruled that only questions pertaining to public office-holders can be discussed before this committee. That's your ruling. Are you going to consistently apply that ruling, or are you going to do so selectively?

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

The member raised this in the context of public office-holders.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON

There are not 50 public office-holders in the government.