Evidence of meeting #31 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was mandate.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you for being here again, Commissioner Dawson, with your colleagues.
Commissioner, you've talked about the difficulty of doing ethics generally. I think we all recognize that in the context of Parliament it has its extra challenges, perhaps, with the partisan nature of the work we do, which I suppose is an extra layer on the task of doing ethics. You've been talking about how the law that you take your mandate from doesn't specifically talk about the term “ethics” in the mandate. Are there other models in other countries or in other institutions you've seen that address that issue in a different way that you think might be helpful for us to know about or to consider, that perhaps make that kind of mandate more explicit or take a different approach than does your office and the legislation we have here in Canada?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
My first comment is that there's a difference between an act and a code. Acts usually are fairly precise, and it's an act we're dealing with for the public office-holders, which isn't to say that the acts are not infused with some ethical principles. Most of the rules--in fact, all of them--should be underpinned by an ethical philosophy. Every country has a different system, but many countries have codes rather than acts, to begin with, or statements of values. Off the top of my head, I can't give you a dissertation on that subject today, but it's one that interests me and that I continue to dig around to see.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
In your discussion this morning you talked about how you can't publicize your decision not to initiate an investigation. Is there any exception to that? If the complainant, the person who was the subject of the investigation, gives permission, is that possible, or is there no question of the possibility of permission to release that information?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
When I take a look at a matter that's raised, sometimes--in fact, frequently--I will write a letter to the individual concerned. It's always open to that individual concerned to release the letter, and that has happened on occasion. But aside from my annual reports with general comments or if I take an investigation to its completion, I don't have another way of releasing information about why I do not carry on an investigation, because I'm not allowed to talk about it except in my report.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
In the report you issued on the Colin Watson case, one of the issues you identified was to try to determine the definition of “friend”. Could you say more about that? Is that something that needs our attention? Are there better definitions out there that would make that kind of determination easier? Could you say a bit more about that issue you faced in that particular investigation?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Ultimately, I was satisfied with how I came down on that report. I thought it was an unusual case, because Mr. Watson kept referring to somebody as his friend, but I determined that in that particular case it was really a manner of speaking as opposed to a reality, for the purpose of the act.
I'm not desperate for a further definition; let me put it that way. I think I can work with where I'm at.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
In your annual report you talked about some concern about reprisals against people who make complaints or provide information. I wonder if you could say a bit more about that. Has that been a serious concern, in your experience? Is offering protection to people who request action something that needs attention?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
No. I think it was probably a comment--I've forgotten exactly when I made that comment--made in the context of why information is protected. I only release information on what needs to be released for the purposes of my report. I don't go out of my way to put people in situations where they could.... It's similar to the whistle-blowing kind of philosophy. I haven't had difficulty as such. I think I discussed that in the context of the rationale for rules.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
An agreed compliance measure, I noticed, is a feature of the reporting you do. I gather that it comes about as a result of some interaction you've had with the public office-holder. Have you issued many of those? Can you tell me something about the process of coming to the point of issuing an agreed compliance measure?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I can't remember exactly how many there have been. I've issued just a couple. It is somewhere in the order of one, two, or three. You will probably see them a little more frequently. I'm getting used to the act at this point.
One of my philosophies is to make things as transparent as I can. I personally think that disclosure is probably the most important tool in this kind of regime. I had a recusal that I made public under section 29.
What was the thrust of the question?
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
Have you done many of them? What is the process involved in coming to one of those?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
They can be made public, but they don't have to be made public. I like the idea of making them public when it will shed some light on what I'm thinking about or on what is happening. You will probably see a few more of those section 29 decisions being made public.
Generally, they are usually come at when I have discussions with the individuals. It boils down to a sensible solution to a situation.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
They don't come about as a result of an investigation process; they come about as part of the regular operation of your office in consultation with public office-holders.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
That's right.
NDP
Bill Siksay NDP Burnaby—Douglas, BC
One of the other issues you raised is the problem of being notified of appointments so that you can make the appropriate approach to those appointees. Can you tell us what is happening on that front? Is there any improvement in that process?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
We're taking steps to remind people that they should tell us in a timely way.
Lyne, could you add to that at all?
Lyne Robinson-Dalpé Assistant Commissioner, Advisory and Compliance, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes. Basically what we've done is establish a mechanism with PCO, because they're the ones who make the Governor in Council appointments. They provide us with a weekly report on future appointments and on those whose mandates are terminating so we can inform them of their post-employment measures or obligations.
As for ministers' offices, we follow up with them regularly so they can inform us of appointments and departures.
Liberal
Conservative
Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you very much, Commissioner, for appearing before us today, along with your staff members.
I'm new to this committee, so this is the first time I have heard you present. I must say, as you're going into your second year, I think that things have moved along fairly well.
I was glad to read your report. I know we are never there totally and we need to make sure we can keep evolving and have a process in place that allows us to do that. I think your report pointed out some very good things.
We've had a fair amount of discussion already this morning on the ethics portion of your comment that was in your report. I wanted to ask you briefly one further question on that.
You had reported that the title includes the word “ethics”, as we've discussed already this morning. But you then went on to say that you don't believe you have the mandate to address all ethical issues.
I know you've told us how you're free to comment on different things and determine what extent that goes to, but are there specific ethical issues that you do not believe you have a mandate to address that perhaps would be beneficial if you did?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I couldn't pinpoint one in particular at this time. The statement is a broad one. Ethics is much broader than the matters that affect people, as members or as public office-holders. I would never investigate an issue about the ethics of abortion or something like that. It has nothing to do with where we are. And as I also said, ethics does underpin the majority of the provisions of the act.
But on the spot, I couldn't name an ethical issue that I want to be able to investigate, although as I look at issues I may make comments as I go along. But nothing comes to my mind right now.
Conservative
Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
So was the statement made in the context of a general statement more than a specific one?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes.
Conservative
Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Okay, thank you. That answers that. We had a lot of discussion, but I didn't know if there was a specific issue that was of concern.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
No. Thank you.
