Evidence of meeting #33 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lobbyists.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Commissioner of Lobbying , Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Under our act there are not.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
What we have is a loophole. Ethically, would you be concerned if it was brought to your attention, as the commissioner in charge of lobbying, that federal agency officials attended fundraisers for the Conservative Party of Canada where both high-ranking Conservative officials were present as well as company executives who were bidding on infrastructure projects that these federal agency officials represented?
Commissioner of Lobbying , Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Mr. Chair, I'm not sure if we're not potentially getting into a specific case in terms of my comments.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Just a moment, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj. Maybe we can deal with this.
I think the original question was a very good question, and it had to do with whether--really succinctly--indirect lobbying exists or doesn't exist in your world. Instead of going straight to a public office-holder, you go to someone who clearly has significant influence over that public office-holder. Is that within your purview?
Even under section 18 of the Conflict of Interest Act we have anti-avoidance provisions where the purpose of the activity would be to circumvent the rules. Certainly going through an intermediary, as it were, effectively achieves the same objective without in fact directly contravening the rules. So the question is very good from the member.
Do you have the authority to look through the transaction or the communication?
Commissioner of Lobbying , Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I'll let counsel add to this. As far as I can see, the act is pretty specific in that the communication has to be with the public office-holder. That's what I have the ability to look at.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
So you don't have any anti-avoidance provisions within the Lobbying Act? There is nothing that is parallel to what's in the Conflict of Interest Act?
Senior Counsel, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
No. If I may add a few words here, I think the Lobbying Act is quite specific about lobbying activities being in relation to payment with public office-holders in relation to the enumerated types of activities—such as changing a statute, changing policy, a grant—that are set out in sections 5 and 7 of the Lobbying Act.
The Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying has always said, and I think it's clear, that if there are allegations or facts, they are looked into. And that's the policy: to look into everything. I think in the member's question with respect to a lobbyist speaking to a party official who is not a public office-holder, that's not lobbying as contemplated in the act. However, I suppose if there were some facts or circumstances that would enable a link to be drawn between that activity and actual lobbying, then that would be something we would look into.
We do look into all sorts of allegations, but strictly speaking, the circumstance or the fact scenario that the member laid out would not be lobbying under the Lobbying Act.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Okay. This little exchange is on my clock. The member still has four minutes.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thank you, Mr. Bergen.
That's exactly, Commissioner, where I was heading with the example I used. In a situation of that sort where you had a major fundraiser organized, where agency officials who have outstanding infrastructure bids attended, along with senior party officials, as well as representatives, senior executives of a company that is bidding on those contracts, would you find that type of scenario something that should be registered and, if not registered, an activity that you would look into?
Commissioner of Lobbying , Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
The activity in question is probably whether the individual was registered, and it might be that I'd be looking at a breach of the code as opposed to a breach of the act in that particular scenario.
October 27th, 2009 / 9:55 a.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
In that case, has Mr. Housakos ever been registered as a lobbyist?
Commissioner of Lobbying , Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Not that I'm aware of, but I can get back to the member on that one.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Has the company he worked for, BPR, ever been registered as a lobbying company?
Commissioner of Lobbying , Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Not that I'm aware of, no.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thank you.
There is an expectation that parliamentarians would be forthcoming when investigated. There is an investigation happening in the Senate, but there are also reports that the senator under investigation made some pretty threatening commentary, saying he felt someone within his caucus, perhaps a member of Parliament, had been leaking information, which does not instill confidence. But the wording that was used regarding this person was that he would “take care of him soon”. As it—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Order, please.
With due respect, I think the commissioner has made it clear that they are not aware that either Senator Housakos or the company are lobbyists and therefore don't fall under the commissioner's purview, and the matter is beyond the scope of what the commissioner probably can or should comment on.
I want to put that in. I think if the member can couch his comments, he can keep it relevant to the commissioner's mandate.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thank you.
Commissioner, will you be looking at suggestions and recommendations that we could make as a committee to make sure that this particular loophole that senior party officials with access to ministers and the Prime Minister—although ethically you would think people would not conduct themselves in this manner.... Would they in fact be compelled to register if they do lobby on behalf of private interests on contracts?
Commissioner of Lobbying , Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
On whether I would welcome comments from this committee, the answer is clearly yes. I would look at them. The act I'm administering is a parliamentary act, after all.
On comments as to where there may be changes, the act is coming up for review in 2010, so there will be another opportunity for all of us to comment at that point.
Conservative
Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thanks very much, Commissioner and your colleagues, for being here this morning.
I'm new to this committee, so I have a couple of questions that hopefully aren't too simplistic in my grasping to understand this.
You do investigations under both the Lobbying Act and the Lobbyists' Code of Conduct. Is that correct?
Conservative
Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
But I don't think the act includes any punishment for violation of the code. Am I correct in that assumption?
Commissioner of Lobbying , Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
There is no financial penalty or jail term for a breach of the code, but when conducting an investigation I am obliged to table a report before Parliament.
I can tell you that of the four reports the previous office tabled in Parliament, the names of these individuals carry quite a bit of weight. We are in court on the matter of an individual trying to show why they were not a lobbyist. So while there is no financial penalty or jail term, I think the bread and butter provided by their names is important to these individuals.
Conservative
Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
So if there has been a violation of the code, your report goes to Parliament.