Information & Ethics Committee on Oct. 27th, 2009

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, please.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

I just need a point of clarification. Is there a steam room on the Hill? It keeps being referred to.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

It's a sauna. It's a two-by-four sauna.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Commissioner, I'm just as concerned about these allegations of a leak from your office to the Prime Minister's Office. Thank you for agreeing to investigate the matter to make sure--you did refer to your staff as very professional--that it's not happening out of your offices. When you conclude your investigation, could you please inform this committee as to your findings, whether the leak occurred from your offices or not?

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Ms. Shepherd.

[Karen Shepherd]

Mr. Chair, the newspaper article said the quote came from the Prime Minister's Office. As I read the article, there was nothing in the article that says that our office told the Prime Minister's Office that we were actually looking into this. Is there someone guessing or whatever that we may or may not be looking into this? It's a newspaper article.

The office takes this quite seriously. As Mr. Martin said, I'm quite appreciative of the fact that I've been given an independent position and all that entails.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

My question was, will you report your investigation on your findings to our committee?

[Karen Shepherd]

I guess, yes. As I said, I will look into it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

If you've done an administrative review and found there's no need for an investigation, you won't be reporting to anybody. Is that right?

[Karen Shepherd]

No, but if I understand the question I'm being asked.... As I've said, I have confidence in my staff and the relationship we have. Whether I'll actually look into whether I have a leak I think is the question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

I understand. Thank you.

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, sorry.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

For clarification, the article quite clearly states in its first line that a government official stated that the Prime Minister's Office is cutting off communications with officials affiliated with Navigator while the federal watchdog of lobbying looks into the practices of the plugged-in firm. So it's quite clear what that statement by a government official and the PMO's decision relating to it are, that they are under investigation. This brings me to the second point.

If the leak did not occur from among your professional staff, from your offices, then more worrisome is where did it occur? How did the information get to the PMO? The only other potential source is the company that's being investigated. With today's news reports, will you be investigating to find out whether or not a company that is under investigation, that gives the heads-up to the PMO...that their relationship is under investigation? Would that now entail a part of your investigation of this particular company and its lobbying?

[Karen Shepherd]

Mr. Chair, I am finding the questions...I'm not comfortable speculating as to how the source.... The one thing about a newspaper article is that they can write whatever they would like to write, in terms of comments.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

I guess my advice to you, Commissioner, is simply to answer within your mandate, within your knowledge, and not to speculate on anything. If you are not aware of a leak, if you have no information to offer--

[Karen Shepherd]

Which is what I feel I've done, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

And that's all you really have to say. All right.

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, you still have three and a half minutes.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

If a company--we're not specifying which company--is under investigation and the fact that they're being investigated seems to indicate that there may have been some wrongdoing, gives a heads up to those individuals, public office-holders that they've lobbied, perhaps the PMO, would that be part of an investigation that you would look into?

[Karen Shepherd]

I'm sorry, I want to make sure I'm understanding the question clearly. You're asking me if I would be investigating where the leak came from during that investigation, or...?

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

There's an investigation taking place. Obviously, there are some concerns about lobbying efforts made by a company. One of the parties that they've lobbied is, theoretically, the Prime Minister's Office. You've begun an investigation. Officials from the lobbying company turn around and give the heads-up to the people they've had an ongoing relationship with, a multi-year relationship, telling them to watch out because our company is being investigated; they've given the heads-up to those who, perhaps, further down the line would be investigated as well, because of potential wrongdoing. Would that be of concern, and would that be part of what you in fact investigate?

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

A point of order, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Stop the clock, please.

Mr. Poilievre, a point of order.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

The commissioner has already indicated that she cannot comment on existing cases, and the member cannot elicit from her indirectly what he cannot elicit from her directly. He is trying to manifest a hypothetical scenario by implying that it reflects a real world one, and it's inappropriate for him to continue to ask questions that the witness is bound by law not to address at this point in time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you. That's not a point of order, but a point made.

I have to indicate also that members have rights, and if they want to pursue a line of questioning that others feel is not going anywhere or can't go anywhere, it is still their right to ask the question. So I will respect the member's rights, and the member still has a minute left in his intervention.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

When do you expect you might be able to report back to this committee on whether or not you've been able to establish that the leak did or did not occur from your offices?

[Karen Shepherd]

I believe I have answered that question, Mr. Chair. I will get back to the committee after I look into the matter. I still have full confidence in my staff that it didn't occur from our office, but I will look into it.