Evidence of meeting #33 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lobbyists.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:55 a.m.
Conservative
Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
What can Parliament do with the conclusions of your investigation?
10 a.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying , Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
They can ask me to come before this committee to discuss the report, but it is tabled before both houses.
10 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Excuse me.
Commissioner, I wonder if you could elaborate a little further. A report to Parliament is one thing, but there are authorities under which there can be consequences pursuant to the consideration of that report as well. Is that correct? You don't impose the sanctions, but you report to a jurisdiction that can.
10 a.m.
Conservative
Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Are you saying that Parliament can impose different sanctions?
10 a.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying , Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I'll ask my legal counsel if he can comment further on that.
10 a.m.
Senior Counsel, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Certainly, Madam Commissioner.
When the commissioner completes an investigation in relation to the Lobbyists' Code of Conduct, the reports are required under the Lobbying Act to be tabled before each house of Parliament. Then it sits with each house of Parliament. So there is no criminal sanction for breach of the code, such as a fine or imprisonment. The matter stands referred to the houses of Parliament. As the commissioner mentioned, the house of Parliament could ask the commissioner to explain the report or consider the report at a meeting of a committee such as this one.
In 2007 the commissioner's predecessor, the Registrar of Lobbyists, completed four reports on the lobbying activities of one very busy lobbyist. They were filed and tabled before both houses of Parliament, but I don't think the committee took it upon itself to do more with those reports following their tabling.
10 a.m.
Conservative
Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Thank you.
In your report you indicate that the total number of paid lobbyists dropped between 2007-08 and 2008-09. You indicate a 17% drop in the number of paid lobbyists for corporations and a 10% drop in lobbyists working for organizations.
Why do you suspect this decline took place? Do you have any ideas on that?
10 a.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying , Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
There are a number of reasons. I think the economy has played a role. I've seen in some articles in American newspapers that they've noticed a drop in registrations due to the economy as well.
In addition, among corporations and organizations, we also noted in last year's annual report that the number of firms actually increased, but the number of lobbyists dropped. I think what was going on was that firms were restructuring.
While there's not a cost of registering if they file online, what some companies have said to me is there is a cost of compliance. In order to make sure they are complying with the act, they've either hired somebody specifically to keep track of meetings and to file the registrations or if there need to be changes made to the monthly report they have somebody taking care of that. Pierre can comment further, but where there maybe used to be six individuals in a firm, we're noticing that this number has almost dropped by two people per corporation on average. And in-house organizations are doing the same thing, reducing the number of people.
The other thing we've seen with the in-house organization is that they're pretty small in this grand scheme of things anyway. So what I think some of the previously registered ones have done is not to register. Previously, if they were hitting 15% of their time, they thought they'd register, but our anecdotal evidence is now showing that with the additional requirement of the monthly communications, they are looking at their activities and if they're not hitting a specific amount of time, they seem to be choosing not to register.
It's one of the things we take seriously and are keeping track of. Pierre's shop is keeping track of what's happening with the stats, and he and I actually meet on a weekly or bi-weekly basis to go through the statistics. At some point we're going to try to look through them, and if our analysis picks up a trend among some of these firms, we may actually go back out and—
10 a.m.
Conservative
Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Are you seeing a decreasing trend in your tracking?
10:05 a.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying , Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Since April, I think there was another 4.6% decrease in the overall number of registrations. But when I'm looking at what's happening in the States, it seems to be pretty consistent there as well, in that the economy is still playing a role.
October 27th, 2009 / 10:05 a.m.
Bloc
Luc Desnoyers Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Welcome.
In your annual report, you say that 91% of monthly entries were verified by a designated public office holder. That was 327 reports out of a total of about 5,000. It seems to me that 327 is not a lot, given the total number of entries. That may make your work less accurate, given the sample.
How do you determine whether the number of entries is sufficient?
10:05 a.m.
Director of Operations, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
First, there are two kinds of entries. There are the underlying reports, the large reports that contain information concerning the purposes in terms of federal institutions that are the target of lobbying activities. Those reports are examined one by one. There are nearly 4,000 active reports in the registry at present. The purpose of that review is essentially to verify the accuracy of the information in terms of the requirements of the act. Those are not investigations, but we want to ensure that the information provided is plausible and clear, and can be easily understood by a member of the public who wanted to consult the registry.
Second, there are the communication reports, which are monthly reports that are called, internally, “ComLogs”. On the 15th of each month, the communication reports for the previous month are submitted, with the designated office holders. Given the quantity of reports submitted and the fact that they are generally submitted before midnight on the 14, we decided to allow the reports to be entered in the registry as they are. Systemic checking is done by the system itself, to validate information, and so on, so human intervention is reduced to a minimum.
That being said, if we had to do a detailed review of each of those monthly reports, it would probably take several months to get them on line, given how many of them there are. So a choice had to be made. It seemed to us, when the system was designed, that it would be in the public interest for the information to be available as quickly as possible, even if a small portion had to be corrected afterward. As the commissioner said, there is a function in the system that allows a person who made an error in submitting the monthly report to correct the date or spelling of a name or things like that.
If there is over-reporting, if a monthly report should not have been submitted regarding a person because the person is not designated, the report can simply be deleted. I say “deleted”, but access to what was submitted and was published in the registry is always possible. A correction is superimposed, but what was originally submitted is always available. The information is not really deleted, because it is still there.
10:05 a.m.
Bloc
Luc Desnoyers Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Like some of my colleagues, I am puzzled about the decline in the number of lobbyists. In your report, you talk about the economic context. Is there anything other than that? There have been much more active periods in Parliament, and that called for lobbyists to be used. Can you comment on that?
10:05 a.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying , Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
There may have been more activity in certain months. At the end of the year, what is important is what is there. It is possible to determine the point in the year when activity was highest. If we compare it with the annual reports, it is activities in March. That is where we have seen a difference. Because I was coming here today, we also examined the difference between activities at the end of March and more recent activities, on October 22.
Yes, it is because of the economy, but I also mentioned that companies are really... They can't have 10 people doing communications, because they then have to put something in place to ensure that all those communications...
10:10 a.m.
Bloc
Luc Desnoyers Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Does that have a particular impact on the law? Does that decline have an impact on the law?
10:10 a.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying , Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Not in my opinion. The law shows that everyone who does lobbying with public office holders has to register.
10:10 a.m.
Bloc
Luc Desnoyers Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Let's go back quickly to the education aspect, because I think that's important. If I understand correctly, you have developed communications and education tools to ensure that lobbyists...
Are the awareness and education tools updated regularly?
10:10 a.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying , Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
That is something we do regularly.
Richard Desjardins can perhaps also speak to that. We have a system that includes multimedia tutorials. In view of the changes in regulations and policies, he and his team work with the multimedia tutorials to make the necessary changes.
An interpretation bulletin has just been added regarding tax credits. Because there were a lot of questions. As Mr. Rickford asked, if we find an answer, we incorporate it in the system, yes.
I also consult the deputy ministers to determine what other tools could be put in place. For example, I was told that we could perhaps add a page about lobbying to their orientation system.
10:10 a.m.
Bloc
Luc Desnoyers Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
In your report, you use the term “designated public office holder” and you also talk about “non-designated public office holders”. Are both categories subject to the act in the same way? How does that work?
10:10 a.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying , Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
First, the Lobbying Act deals with communication between a lobbyist and a public office holder. Mr. Martin was talking about all lobbyists. We sometimes say a public office holder, under the act, that means just about everyone in Ottawa.
If there are communications between the two people, the lobbyist has to register with the commissioner. However, for designated public office holders, the difference is that if there are communications with those persons the lobbyist has to submit a monthly report on them.
In addition, designated public office holders are subject to the prohibition on acting as lobbyists for five years after the end of their term in office. That is the big difference.