Information & Ethics Committee on May 6th, 2010

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Order, please.

This is meeting number 13 of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. It is being televised, as requested, with the orders of the day, pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(h)(vi), being a study on allegations of interference in access to information requests.

We have two panels of witnesses this morning.

Our first witness is Mr. Sébastien Togneri, former parliamentary affairs director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, and he is accompanied by his lawyer, Mr. Jean-François Lecours. As we discussed earlier, Mr. Lecours is here to be able to advise his client, but he may not address the committee.

Welcome, gentlemen.

Before commencing, I want to confirm to the committee that I have a written opinion from the law clerk that I referred to and I'd like to read from it:

Simply put, no proceeding elsewhere prevents anyone--a Member, a Minister or a private citizen--from appearing before a parliamentary committee. Whether the sub judice rule should apply depends on the circumstances and the nature of other proceedings and on the willingness of the committee or committee members to apply the rule. Arguably, the sub judice rule applies only to matters before the courts.

This matter is not before the courts, and I would not believe that sub judice will be an issue, so we are free to proceed.

Also, colleagues, this morning I had a conversation with the Information Commissioner, who had indicated to Mr. Togneri...and we had received correspondence from his counsel a concern about appearing here. She has indicated to me that she's not aware of any questions at this time that should not be asked or that she would have some concern about—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Just a moment.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

No, I do have a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Just a moment, I will get to it.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

No, but a point of order does interrupt your—

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

No. No, I will deal with it—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Actually, it does.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

—when I'm finished what I'm doing right now, okay?

She understands fully and appreciates and agrees with the position or the opinion advised to us by the law clerk, and she would be prepared to appear before the committee, should the committee wish so, to discuss this matter further.

Given that, I think committee members are also aware that there is another proceeding going on, and we don't want to frustrate it, but it's very clear that the committee's priorities and its ability to do the job cannot and should not be interrupted by any other proceedings.

Now, Mr. Poilievre, on a point of order.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

You indicate that the Information Commissioner had communicated to you that no questions asked by this committee would cause any problems with her investigation. Can you table the letter in which she communicated that to you?

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

That was a conversation this morning. She phoned me.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

So you have no written—

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

I will get her to put it in writing.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

So we have your interpretation of that conversation?

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

You have what I was told this morning, just about an hour ago, by the Information Commissioner.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

And you have no documentation to carry that forward to us?

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

It was a telephone conversation from her, at her request.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

So do you have any documentation at all?

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

No, I—

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

You don't.

I do, and it's from the Assistant Information Commissioner, Andrea Neill, who has a confidentiality order pursuant to sections 34, 35, 36, and 64 of the Access to Information Act, in which she writes that Mr. Togneri “shall not disclose” any of--

[Ève-Mary Thaï Thi Lac, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Is it an official document?

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

--“the questions asked, answers given, and exhibits used during his examination under oath before the Counsel to the Information Commissioner on March 23, 2010 in any manner to anyone until the Information Commissioner's investigation is complete, except to his counsel”, Mr. Jean-François Lecours.

So this is an order from the Information Commissioner, and you have now put this particular witness in a position where you are demanding of him something that he has been ordered not to provide.

You make a claim that you have had a conversation with the Information Commissioner's office. You have no documentation to support your interpretation of that conversation. We, on the other hand, do have documentation straight from that office, which I'm prepared to table.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

All right. Thank you. I appreciate that.

Mr. Poilievre and colleagues, we received a copy of this communication from Mr. Lecours that was raised at our last meeting. I undertook to get an opinion from the law clerk. I gave it verbally, but I have it in writing now.

The law clerk has clearly stated that, notwithstanding the Information Commissioner's communication, the committee's rights to hear a witness cannot be overridden by any other proceeding--any other proceeding. The commissioner called yesterday and asked to speak with me--actually, at 9 o'clock this morning. There were two matters. The first was not relevant to this committee, but she did want to offer with regard to the matter you have just raised... She confirmed to me verbally there was no concern from the Information Commissioner's office with regard to Mr. Togneri's appearance before this committee today.

Having said that, I appreciate the information, but we are going to proceed with this witness now.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

On a point of order, Mr. Poilievre, please.