Evidence of meeting #13 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was question.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:20 p.m.
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
That is correct. She has not reported back on my testimony and, I imagine, the testimony of others.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
That's probably one of the reasons she provided you with this order. Because I don't think she needs her investigation interfered with by politicians, whether they be the chair of a parliamentary committee or a member of the opposition caucus.
12:25 p.m.
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Mr. Chair, thank you for the question.
Again, that's precisely why I refused to come in the first place—or in the second place, I should say. Of course, my respect for Parliament and this process...when I was summoned, I was not going to put myself in a position to not show up and then be in contempt. So that's why I'm here today answering your questions.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
Right. I want you to know that I think you have demonstrated your willingness to cooperate with this committee. You've answered questions where you have been permitted to answer them. I encourage you to continue with your long track record of service to the Canadian people.
12:25 p.m.
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Thank you.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Thank you kindly.
We'll move on. This is round two.
Madam Foote, for five minutes, please.
May 6th, 2010 / 12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Togneri, for appearing before us this morning.
Canadians, including the media, have the right to access the information the government has. Certainly, under the Access to Information Act, I'm sure you would agree with that.
12:25 p.m.
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Yes. Thank you for the question. Absolutely.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL
Are you aware that interference in the ATI process is an offence under the Access to Information Act?
12:25 p.m.
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Yes, absolutely.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL
Then would you consider your actions, when there was a bureaucratic response prepared and sent to the mailroom, and then you instructed a bureaucrat, as you said in your e-mail of July 27 to a senior official in the department's access to information section, “Well unrelease it”...would you consider that to be interference?
12:25 p.m.
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Thank you for the question.
I don't think I....
I did not interfere in the procedure. The commissioner is currently conducting an investigation that will determine whether or not there was a violation.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL
Are you aware of the memos that were sent out by the Prime Minister's Office through Mr. Giorno with respect to interfering in the process in terms of access to information?
12:25 p.m.
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Thank you for the question.
Which memo specifically?
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL
Actually, there were several sent out, and all of them pointed to reminding political staff of their responsibilities with respect to the Access to Information Act, in that they were not to be involved in that particular access to information or interfere with it in any way.
12:25 p.m.
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Yes, I am aware of those memos.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL
At this point, then, you don't think that any of your actions did anything that was contrary to what Mr. Giorno had indicated to political staff that they were supposed to do or not do?
12:25 p.m.
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
I'm sorry. Could you be more precise in the instructions given?
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL
Mr. Giorno's memo says, in fact:
Staff members should also be aware that subsection 67.1(1) of the Access to Information Act makes it an offence to obstruct the right of access:
No person shall, with intent to deny a right of access under this Act,
(a) destroy, mutilate, or alter a record;
(b) falsify a record or make a false record;
(c) conceal a record; or
(d) direct, propose, counsel or cause any person in any manner to do anything mentioned in any of paragraphs (a) to (c).
While most political staff members are familiar with the law and their responsibilities, it is useful to refresh their knowledge and awareness.
I want to go back to the request that you asked to have unreleased. In looking at the (a), (b), (c), and (d), and “destroy, mutilate, or alter a record”, clearly when that information was ultimately released, what had been prepared by the bureaucrats I think was something in the order of 132 pages, and what finally went out was 30 pages. I think that's what it was.
So I guess I'm just asking: would you not consider that to be altering a record?
12:30 p.m.
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Mr. Chair, I am being asked to interpret the law, and that is not my job.
As I have already responded, I did not have delegated authority, and therefore any decisions on how a document was released were never mine.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL
So you had no part to play in ensuring that the document--the 130-page document--that you asked to have unreleased ultimately ended up being just 30 pages?
12:30 p.m.
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
Thank you for the question.
I had no role to play in that.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL
So the part you played was to unrelease the document. Under whose direction did you do that?
12:30 p.m.
Former Parliamentary Affairs Director, Department of Public Works and Government Services, As an Individual
There were no directions from anybody. I did send, in a hurry, a stupid e-mail, as I would put it. I refer you again to the fact that there was no delegated authority. It was a mistake on my part and that's all I have to say.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal