Evidence of meeting #15 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sparrow.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ryan Sparrow  Director of Communications, Office of the Minister, Human Resources and Skills Development, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Peter Larose  Assistant Deputy Minister, Public Affairs and Stakeholder Relations, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development
Patricia Valladao  Chief, Media Relations, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Order.

This is meeting number 15 of the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics. Our orders of the day, pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(h)(vi), are a study on allegations of interference in access to information requests.

We have two sets of witnesses today.

Our first witness is Mr. Ryan Sparrow, director of communications in the Office of the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development. In the second part of the meeting we will hear, from the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development, Patricia Valladao, chief of media relations, and Mr. Peter Larose, Assistant Deputy Minister, public affairs and stakeholder relations.

As the members will notice, we are blessed to have been joined by the minister herself, the Honourable Diane Finley.

The orders of the day indicate that we are here to hear from Mr. Sparrow, and he has an opening statement for us. The minister is not here to make any statements, and I'm in the committee's hands with regard to whether or not she has other roles. Any member of Parliament has the right to sit at any committee table, but is not authorized to ask questions unless they are duly signed into the committee. Okay?

So let's not waste any more time.

Welcome, Mr. Sparrow. You have a statement. Please proceed.

11:15 a.m.

Ryan Sparrow Director of Communications, Office of the Minister, Human Resources and Skills Development, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Mr. Chair, thank you for inviting me to appear before this committee.

Before I take the committee's questions, it's important for me to outline my roles and responsibilities as director of communications for the Minister of Human Resources and Skills Development as outlined in “Policies and Guidelines for Ministers' Offices”.

The director of communications for a cabinet minister is responsible for many things, including: providing strategic planning and communications advice to the minister; leading comprehensive communication plans on behalf of the minister; consulting regularly with the Prime Minister's Office in order to better coordinate government-wide communication; overseeing and coordinating with the department the development of communications initiatives to ensure that they are consistent with the minister's objectives and the government's mandate; establishing and maintaining a professional relationship with the media; and being the leading official spokesperson for the minister.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

The translators are having a little trouble keeping up with you. Pace yourself a little more slowly, please.

11:15 a.m.

Director of Communications, Office of the Minister, Human Resources and Skills Development, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Ryan Sparrow

The director of communications and departmental officials are also expected to follow all the rules under the guidelines of the Government of Canada's communications policy.

Under the policy, and I quote: “Institutions must consult their minister's office when planning media campaigns or strategies that could involve ministerial participation, or when preparing a response to a media enquiry that could have implications for the minister”.

Ministers are the principal spokespersons of the Government of Canada. They are supported in this role by appointed aides, including executive assistants, communications directors, and press secretaries in the ministers' offices.

I take my roles and responsibilities very seriously, and I have always followed the communications policy, as I do in this instance being examined in front of the committee today.

Mr. Chair, I understand that the committee has invited me here today to discuss a newspaper article based on an inquiry into the cost of economic action plan advertising campaigns. The facts are as follows. A reporter contacted HRSDC requesting information on the economic action plan help for workers ad campaign that ran during the Olympics two days before the ad campaign was completed. He specifically asked for two things: the cost and the frequency of the ads.

It is impossible to respond to the question of frequency of ads before an ad campaign is over. There are several reasons why.

For instance, programming can change and the frequency of ads can differ from what was originally planned. Ad campaigns are unique in that they do not have fixed costs. The cost of an ad campaign depends on the frequency of the ads. Accordingly, until the frequency is known, it is impossible to know the accurate costs.

Again, this information was readily available once the campaign was complete. As soon as the ad campaign ended and the frequency was actually known, more accurate costs were available, and that information was provided to whoever requested it.

I would like to repeat: the information was released after the advertising campaign ended and more accurate information was available.

Our government was forthcoming in providing more accurate costs in a timely manner once the campaign was complete and final airtime was known. The approach taken was prudent and responsible.

Mr. Chair, it is important to inform the committee that the objective assessment of the advertising campaign shows that it was very successful in raising awareness for Canadian workers of the programs that our government is delivering in these tough economic times. There was a higher-than-average recall rate and a higher-than-average number of Canadians who said they would take action as a result of seeing the ads.

Canadians have a right to know what programs and services are available from the government to help them and their families. Canadian taxpayers also have a right to the most accurate information available regarding the use of their tax dollars.

Accordingly, waiting for the ad campaign to end and providing the most accurate costs in a timely manner was the prudent and responsible approach. I'd be pleased to take questions.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Okay.

Before we proceed to questions, I simply want to remind you, honourable colleagues, that the motion was quite explicit about having the minister and then the others following. There must be a reason for that, so I think it's anticipated that we will do the answers from Mr. Sparrow. So the questions should be addressed to Mr. Sparrow who is, in fact, the witness.

We're going to start with Mr. Valeriote.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

Thank you, Mr. Sparrow.

Thank you, Minister Finley, for appearing today. Of course, my questions are going to be directed to Mr. Sparrow.

Mr. Sparrow, you've explained why you feel it was necessary to intervene in the request of Mr. Leblanc and his inquiry about the cost. Your explanation is basically stating that you were unable to give accurate figures. Why did you not say that in your e-mail--we are unable to give accurate figures?

11:20 a.m.

Director of Communications, Office of the Minister, Human Resources and Skills Development, Department of Human Resources and Skills Development

Ryan Sparrow

I'll refer that question to the minister.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

Well, I would rather that you answer the question. You're the witness.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Mr. Sparrow, questions directed to you should be answered by you. We have heard the minister. We know what she has testified before the committee. It is my view that you have the ability to answer this question, and I think the committee would like to hear your answer.

11:20 a.m.

Haldimand—Norfolk Ontario

Conservative

Diane Finley ConservativeMinister of Human Resources and Skills Development

Mr. Chair, may I intervene?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

No, I'm sorry, Minister.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Mr. Chair, I'd like to--

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

I've made a ruling.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Mr. Chair, with all due respect, Mr. Sparrow operates under my delegated authority. Anything he does is under my authority, authority that I carry as minister. Therefore, I have that authority. I respectfully request that I be allowed to exercise that authority myself.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Yes, well, Madam Minister, the committee has already addressed this issue. In fact, it is the reason why the motion we have specifically indicated that it wanted to have yourself and other witnesses at separate meetings so that this wouldn't happen. That is the motion adopted by the committee.

In this particular regard, the question is a question that Mr. Sparrow has every bit of knowledge to answer why he did what he did. I don't think you will be able to express it any more clearly than the person himself.

I've made a ruling. We're not going to have the minister speak on behalf of the witness because the minister has not been invited to this committee to in fact be asked or to answer on behalf of Mr. Sparrow. It is contrary to the motion adopted by this committee.

That's my ruling. I'd ask Mr. Sparrow to please proceed and respond to the question.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Mr. Chair, I would actually refer you--

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Order. Order.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

--to the experts on the subject of ministerial accountability, O'Brien and Bosc, Marleau and Montpetit, the guide for ministers, and that is--

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Order, Madam Minister.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

--that the minister is accountable, and that's why I'm here today, because it is my authority. And I respectfully ask you to consider the long-standing parliamentary traditions of this country and of our mother Parliament, which are outlined in the writings of the people I've just mentioned. I believe that they are germane to this discussion.

I'd be quite happy to respond to the questions, exercising my authority that was only delegated during a period of time, but retaining that authority for myself as the minster, which is appropriate under our parliamentary tradition.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Madam Minister, Parliament has the right to call for persons, papers, or records--all persons. Members of Parliament are exempt from that. They can refuse to appear.

We have called Mr. Sparrow, as an individual related to this matter, before us to respond to our questions. The ministerial relationship with staff is not going to supersede this committee's right to ask this person, whom we have duly called, to respond to the questions.

I will not entertain further debate on whether or not you can answer for Mr. Sparrow. My decision, based on the motion passed by this committee, is that Mr. Sparrow is going to answer the questions directed at him.

If you'd like to consult with him, as a lawyer might do, that's fine, but you are not able to address this committee directly. You can do it through Mr. Sparrow, if you wish.

But again, that's my ruling and I would like to have Mr. Sparrow answer that question now.

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

Mr. Chair, I make one last appeal to you to respect the traditions of Parliament, that of ministerial accountability, and that also of the relationship that any employee has with his or her employer; and that is for accountability, and that the employer takes responsibility. Those are long-standing traditions.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

You, Minister--

11:25 a.m.

Conservative

Diane Finley Conservative Haldimand—Norfolk, ON

There's one other tradition, Mr. Chair--

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo

Thank you.