Information & Ethics Committee on May 13th, 2010

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

It seems to me that some who are attacking ministerial accountability, both in this issue and in today's hearings, want to separate the minister from her ability to be responsible for the information that comes out of her department. If, therefore... I can tell you something: if that department had released information that was false, possibly unintentionally, we'd be having hearings right now as to why the minister allowed false information to come out of her office, out of her department, wouldn't we?

[Ryan Sparrow]

It would be inappropriate to provide inaccurate figures, absolutely.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

I know you can't speculate on what opposition members would put forward in the way of motions, but I'm sure we can all surmise that in the event that false information had come out, in the event that you had not done your job on behalf of the minister and that information had gone out inaccurately, you can be sure that one member of this committee would have said, “Let's now have a study on why the minister has allowed false information to come out of the department”.

[Ryan Sparrow]

Since the minister is responsible--and obviously I support her in her roles as minister--my concern was absolutely to provide the accurate information in a timely manner.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

And if that study were to occur and the minister were to arrive here and say she's not responsible for the information that comes out of her department because that is done on a completely separate basis from her, then I'm sure they would open up the rule book, which finds that ministers are in fact accountable for their departments, right?

[Ryan Sparrow]

It would be difficult for me to speculate on what the opposition members would do at committee, but since the minister is responsible, I can only infer that there could possibly be something of that nature, yes.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

I think that in the exchange we've just completed we have drawn the line between responsibility and accountability. You must be responsible for the information as it goes out if you're going to be accountable for its accuracy after it has gone out, correct?

[Ryan Sparrow]

Yes.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

And that is the role that you played?

[Ryan Sparrow]

Correct.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

And the minister has come here to be accountable for the way in which you played it?

[Ryan Sparrow]

Yes.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Thank you.

I think Mr. Warkentin has questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Okay. There's less than a minute.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

How much time do I have?

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Less than a minute.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Further to this, you referenced earlier that if an ATIP request came to your department or any department asking about the total number of bricks in the Peace Tower construction... Let's just say that came across your desk and the answer that was provided was 100 bricks. That might set off alarm bells in your mind.

You've walked by the Peace Tower and you recognize that this possibly isn't the correct number. You inquire as to why that was the number being provided and you're told that it was because the person counting the bricks wasn't finished yet and that was the information available at that time. Obviously, that paints a picture of why it would be important for you to flag that for the benefit of the minister, like you did in the question that is before us today.

Mr. Sparrow, is that the type of thing you would do...to say, does this look reasonable, does this look appropriate, should we send it back?

[Ryan Sparrow]

Mr. Chair, if I may, I'd make a slight correction.

In respect to access to information, the minister has delegated an official within her department so no one in the minister's office is responsible for access to information inquiries.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Okay. Pardon me. But in this case, this is a media inquiry.

[Ryan Sparrow]

In respect to media inquiries, I would certainly coordinate and complement what the department would be doing, absolutely.

[Chris Warkentin, Conservative, Peace River, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Sparrow.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Okay. Thank you very much.

Madame Freeman, please.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

I want to know who Mylène Dupéré is; she sent you an email on February 26. The email was addressed to you by your first name, “Ryan”. So Ms. Dupéré must know you fairly well. According to her email, Daniel Leblanc had sent an email and was insisting on being given the figures. She recommended going back to the original version, which had figures in it. Mylène Dupéré sent you that email at 1:04 p.m., and at 1:36 p.m., you replied that the original response—the one where information on the figures had been removed—was correct.

I am trying to understand something. Daniel Leblanc came back insisting on obtaining the amounts. The request was clear. You may say that the numbers were not accurate at that point, but why did you not at least give him some answer having to do with the financial status of the advertising campaign at that time? Who is Mylène Dupéré?

[Ryan Sparrow]

She is the manager of media relations in the department of HRSDC. As I stated earlier, I spoke to her boss, the ADM of communications, and I informed him of my rationale. He agreed. And I made a decision to provide accurate costs in a timely manner. That's what the reporter was asking for.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

In your opinion, does failing to provide information go against an access to information request from the media? The information was available, there was information on the figures, and you deliberately withheld it.