Information & Ethics Committee on May 25th, 2010

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Do I get a closing statement?

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Bye, bye.

We'll suspend for five minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

We're back in session.

Colleagues, as I had indicated at the beginning of the meeting, the developments in the House this morning are very serious. Each of the parties had an opportunity to make representations in the House, but because there wasn't sufficient time—I believe all of the parties felt they needed more time to digest the statement of the government House leader on behalf of the government--we still have some work to do.

I'm sure that members will want to consult with their colleagues as to how we should proceed. I must admit to you that I was hopeful that the minister would have some briefing that was pertinent to the matter before us. I guess, combined with the chemistry in the room, it just didn't quite work out that way. Unfortunately, we weren't making headway on the order of the day.

We do now have a motion that the committee has adopted that they want to consider the matter of the non-appearance of Mr. Soudas, who was supposed to be here today. As I indicated to you, Mr. Soudas did in fact call the clerk just shortly before this meeting started to indicate that he indeed would not be here, and that the Prime Minister wouldn't be here because it's not normal to have the Prime Minister appear before committee on this matter, but that a representative would be sent. At that point, that's how we ended up with the Minister of Transport, who was delegated to appear on behalf of the Prime Minister. I wanted to try to see if there was something there that would help. I think the committee members decided that we weren't making much headway on the subject matter before us.

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Some of them did.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

We have some very important witnesses--and it's not just Mr. Soudas. The government has indicated that their policy right now is that exempt political staff will not be appearing; it will be the minister. We have made--

[Greg Rickford, Conservative, Kenora, ON]

Point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

We have made other calls for witnesses. The steering committee is going to meet on Thursday, I think we agreed, to see if we can sort out our rescheduling, because if political staff are not able to come before committee, all of a sudden we have a whole schedule to redo. Rather than take up the entire committee's time, we're going to do that on Thursday for an hour, from twelve until one, after the President of Mexico addresses the Chamber. Our meeting on Thursday in fact is cancelled, but the steering committee agreed to meet.

Now the motion is that we deal with the non-appearance of Mr. Soudas. I think I'd like to hear options or suggestions from each party first, just to get a sense of where we're going. I don't know whether we'll be able to complete this, but I do want to hear from each party. Then when we see what the dimensions are here, we'll have a better idea of whether a motion will be forthcoming to actually do something concrete.

Mr. Easter, would you like to start?

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

I don't know if I should start or if we should turn to the other....

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

No, we'll go Mr. Easter, Madam Freeman, Mr. Siksay, and Madam Davidson or Mr. Poilievre.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Mr. Chair, I have here the statement made in the House today by the House leader of the Conservative Party. We were aware that something like this might be coming forward, given the fact that Dimitri Soudas, who seems to be the key government spokesman these days, was in the media on the weekend saying that something like that might be coming forward.

The way I look at this, clearly a cloak of secrecy has been thrown over this government by the cabinet and by the Prime Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Can we get to...?

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

That's a very serious issue. It makes a farce of the Accountability Act and transparencies that the Prime Minister ran on.

That being the case, given that the statement was just made in the House today--and I understand there has been response by the other parties that I certainly haven't seen--this is an extremely serious issue. I would say that we look at the statements that have been made in the House by Mr. Hill, look at them fairly thoroughly, and the responses by the other parties, and then make a determination on another day.

We can put forward a motion if we want to summon Mr. Soudas at a later time, or whatever process the committee decides to use, but what I am saying is let's not make a hasty decision today. Let's look at what was said in the House, see what the implications are, and think very seriously about it. I believe there are serious implications for our democracy and our ability as committees to function effectively based on what happened here today, because of the cloak of secrecy that has been thrown over government, and I'd say an abuse of Parliament that has been thrown forward by the Prime Minister's Office.

So I say let's take a few days to think about it and then the appropriate motion may come forward.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Okay.

Madam Freeman.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Mr. Chair, the institution of Parliament has very clear rules governing its operations. To my way of thinking, a House leader who rises and makes a statement in the House cannot use this occasion to alter the laws, regulations, traditions and everything else that represents the very essence of this institution.

Parliament is an institution that works for the people, for all citizens. I imagine that we could spend a number of days debating the statement that was made, but the fact remains that a House leader cannot amend the laws, regulations and procedures in place. The same holds true for our committee and the way in which it operates. It is the master of its own agenda. The committee invited Mr. Dimitri Soudas, to appear. Regardless of who they are, citizens have a duty to appear.

If Mr. Soudas does not want to appear, then I think we should ask him again, but this time, he should be formally summoned. He should not enjoy any immunity or privileges. He is an ordinary citizen and should be treated as such. A house leader does not have the power to change existing rules simply by making a statement. I trust I have made my position clear.

This Parliament has become a circus and the sole objective of the government is to silence and impede the democratic process. Consequently, I ask that Mr. Soudas be made to appear before the committee, whether or not he is formally summoned.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

The minister was here to speak, and your motion didn't allow it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Mr. Siksay.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Chair, I have to say from the outset that I do not accept the change in policy by the government that was announced this morning, and I made a statement on behalf of New Democrats in the House to that effect. I believe that it's an unacceptable and unwarranted change in policy from the government. I believe allegations have been made that are wrong, frankly, and that this committee in particular has taken a very serious issue and proceeded in a very fair and measured way to investigate it. I will continue to support that investigation.

I believe Mr. Soudas must appear before this committee. I'll give notice now that I will be tabling a motion that he be summoned before the committee, and we can discuss that. I suppose that won't happen until our Tuesday meeting next week because of what's happening here on Thursday, with the visit of the Mexican president and our committee meeting being cancelled.

But I believe we have no option. If we are to take our role as a standing committee of Parliament seriously, as well as our mandate to be concerned about the Access to Information Act and compliance with that act, our concerns that we've already expressed about political interference in the access to information process, and the fact that we adopted a motion that called for certain witnesses to appear before the committee because we believed in good faith that they had information or experience to bring to that discussion, I believe we can't abandon that obligation or that direction that we've taken.

I believe that Mr. Soudas is important to the study we have undertaken, so I believe we need to take that next step. We can't let Mr. Soudas, the government, or the Prime Minister off the hook when we believe that there are serious implications about political interference in access to information. We believe--and I think reasonably--that all of the folks we have called to this point had some role to play in that situation.

So, Chair, I'll give notice now that I intend to table a motion to summon Mr. Soudas. That hopefully will be on our agenda at our meeting next week.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Okay. Are we done?

Mr. Poilievre.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Our government delegation at this committee has been completely consistent from the beginning: ministers are responsible for their offices, and they will be the ones who will appear on behalf of those offices. That decision was communicated formally to the House of Commons via the House leader.

Given that this decision has been made, we look forward to working with members of the opposition to ensure that they get the answers they seek while respecting that core principle of ministerial accountability.

So I would invite members on the other side to reach across the aisle to find some sort of arrangement that allows both the principle of transparency, which they seek to uphold, and the principle of ministerial responsibility, which we believe sacrosanct, to coexist within the confines of this committee and indeed throughout all of Parliament.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

All right. Let's see if we can tidy up a couple of things here.

First of all, there is still a very big question mark out there as to whether or not the Speaker is going to make a ruling on the government's announcement as to whether it is in fact in play with regard to committees calling witnesses. There is obviously clear precedent with regard to who can be called before committees and the right to call for persons, papers, and records. We are not going to decide that ourselves. I know we have views ourselves, but the decision ultimately affects not just our committee but all committees. So we need to have the finality of that answer. However, we also have to plan our affairs, because we've got to make use of the time. It's very limited time we have between now and the summer break. Our last meeting is on June 22, and we may have to scramble a little bit to get the necessary witnesses.

The committee has a number of witnesses yet to see. We have certainly requested to see Mr. Soudas and Mr. Togneri again. There is also a panel of five other political staff from other departments. And Mr. Easter has a motion with regard to--

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

The motion was with regard to bureaucrats.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

They're bureaucrats, yes, fonctionnaires, five officials. My apologies. They were approved, and we've arranged them for a panel, so we will hear them.

[Carole Freeman, Bloc, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

We can hear their testimony.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Mr. Easter has also given us a motion, which you have all received. It was dated May 19, and it called for Ms. Jillian Andrews, policy advisor to the office of the Minister of Public Works and Government Services, July 2009. This is the person Mr. Togneri had referred to as also being involved in the activities we were questioning him about, certainly a relevant witness.

At this point, assuming we just continue the way we are, with these being the witnesses, I would like to see, if the committee concurs, if it were appropriate and if it were permitted, that Ms. Jillian Andrews, policy advisor to the Minister of Public Works, would also be scheduled as a witness.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

No.