Evidence of meeting #18 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was speak.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
I have not completed my remarks. I have the right to complete my remarks. You interrupted my comments.
Very briefly, in response to your admonition to me that I try to clean up my language and be more parliamentary in my language, I would point out to you that we had testimony from Mr. Easter previous to mine that was most unparliamentary in referring to the Prime Minister.
Mr. Chair, if you allow a member to—
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
He just called the Prime Minister a dictator, Mr. Chair. Is that parliamentary language? Do you allow that? You admonished me, but you allow this member to call the Prime Minister a dictator?
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Your name isn't Baird, your name isn't Coady, and we're not going there.
Madam McLeod.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Thank you, Chair.
As I think everyone knows, I'm not a regular member of this committee. I did actually watch the proceedings on TV when a staff member was here, and I was actually quite stunned by what I witnessed, seeing the staff member being interrogated in a process where there appeared to be no fairness, or that simply appeared to be a bit of a witch hunt.
I know that in any committee I've been on, when we managed to secure the time of a minister, we have valued that time. It is very clear that the minister, in terms of his accountability, could speak very clearly to the issue at hand. So I think it is absolutely imperative that this committee vote to allow the minister to speak.
I speak in favour of the motion.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE
Mr. Easter, you have the floor, sir.
Mr. Chair, just let's go back to the beginning. That is, that this committee is doing an investigation into allegations of interference in access to information requests, and that was based on a motion that we debated some time ago. As a result of that, the committee sat down and determined a number of witnesses who could lead us to the facts. That's what we're looking for here, facts. For some reason, I don't know why, the government... And we can go back to some of the things the parliamentary secretary even said in the beginning on this issue, when we debated whether or not staff would be allowed to come. Mr. Togneri was allowed to come. Of course, in Mr. Togneri's information he mentioned Jillian Andrews, so we decided we should also hear from her.
But following that meeting, when it seemed like we were really starting to drill into the facts, whether it was the systems management committee at the PMO or what really happened, by the people directly involved... You know, if an employee of a store robs the store, you don't need to bring in the manager to talk about the employee. You talk to the people who are actually doing the deed. This is what this whole purpose of this committee was. Now, when we had evidence after hearing Mr. Togneri, Mr. Soudas at the time was here. The fire alarm went. He seemed more than willing to come. In fact I happened to talk to him, and he seemed really enthusiastic to come before the committee. Then all of a sudden, cabinet meets, and we get a speech in the House by the House leader that this will never happen again. I believe it's an abuse of committees, and we'll get to that debate next week.
Mr. Chair, the committee will decide when we want a minister. We certainly need to hear from the other individuals first, I believe, before we hear from the minister. I have a motion that we didn't debate today that would be calling on Mr. Paradis to come before this committee. But there's other information from people who were involved in this issue who we need to talk to first so we can appropriately question the minister. That's not a kangaroo court, as Mr. Lukiwski is saying. That is a committee that is trying to sit down and seriously do its work. The problem with us being able to be serious and do our work is the edict that came from cabinet that staffers would no longer be able to appear before committees, which I believe is our right.
There's the A list, those who have been invited, and there's the B list, those who have just dropped by. I like to operate on the basis that when we decide as a committee who we're going to invite, I know who it is, and I expect them to be here. I do my research so my questions can be properly asked, and that's what parliamentarians should do. That's our job. We're doing that on behalf of Canadians, and that's how I expect this committee to function. So for the minister to just appear here today seems to me more of a cover-up than anything else.
I know Mr. Lukiwski and others are certainly trying to get a certain message out here by calling this a kangaroo court. This is not a kangaroo court. This is a committee trying legitimately to do its work and being obstructed in doing our work by the Prime Minister's Office and the cabinet of this government.
12:40 p.m.
Bloc
Luc Desnoyers Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
The rules under which we operate are clear. My colleagues have once more declared that the minister was not invited. Of course, he can participate as a member of Parliament. The person we wanted to hear from is Mr. Togneri, who, we feel, has a good deal of information to give us on the matter. Just like the other witnesses whom we want to question and whose answers we want to hear, as my colleagues have stated.
Since we live in a democracy, I feel the committee has those rights. If we feel that it is appropriate to invite the minister, we can do so. At the moment, the only thing happening is that the work of the committee is being systematically paralyzed. As the minister had nothing else to do this morning, he came to sit with us and to listen to us.
We must now move to other matters, in my view. Mr. Chair, I move that the committee do now adjourn.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
You're making a motion that we do now adjourn.
I heard one member say there's a motion on the floor and you can't make another motion. That's normally correct, and we had the case there with Mr. Lukiwski and Mr. Poilievre. However, motions to adjourn are special motions, so the motion by Mr. Desnoyers that the committee do now adjourn is in order. It is not debatable and we must call the vote immediately.
Please call the question.
(Motion agreed to: yeas 9; nays 0)