Evidence of meeting #18 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was speak.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Tom Lukiwski Conservative Regina—Lumsden—Lake Centre, SK
I don't doubt your veracity. I'm just wondering whether that's correct procedure.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
The facts are on the table; they're on the record.
Now, Mr. Desnoyers and then Mr. Paradis.
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
You have cited a precedent and a rule that forbid anyone from tampering with witnesses. In this instance you decided that you wanted to make a media circus out of Mr. Soudas's appearance. As proof of that, I point to your admission that you ran to the media to talk about a summons before you even informed Mr. Soudas. You tell me a court of law in Canada that would operate in that way. You have basically launched a media attack on a witness before even informing the witness that he was being summonsed to testify. That is entirely inappropriate.
No one is suggesting that you should not be allowed to speak to members of the media. That would be ridiculous. It's part of all of our jobs to communicate with members of the public, and we do that through the media. But the very basic respect and decency that you could show to witnesses of the committee would be to wait until those witnesses have been informed of the information that you are sharing with the media about them.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Thank you.
Mr. Poilievre, I hear you, and I know we should always use discretion. If you check the transcript of our meeting of last Tuesday, I announced at the very beginning of the meeting that I signed the summons, and all the committee knew; it was also televised. I don't think we're talking about state secrets here.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
It's not a state secret, it's a matter of respect to tell the witness first.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
It was in the public domain.
Now that I've seen today the bailiff's report, where there appears to have been a refusal to be served, I've asked for a legal opinion about whether service is deemed to have been taken where someone refuses to accept. But I have to get the details from the bailiff, and that's still ongoing.
But I don't want to take up the committee's time. What I do want to do is hopefully get on to hear this minister who wants to appear. We have a motion that would allow it—
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
Mr. Chair, on a point of order, you've indicated to the committee that you did not speak to any media on this matter until Tuesday evening. I have a message that was conveyed by a member of the media in a public forum on Twitter on May 31, which would have been Monday, a full day, 24 hours, before you claim to have spoken to the press. It says: “Paul Szabo has issued summons to Dimitri Soudas, Jillian Andrews to appear at committee.” So it is clear that you were playing this out in the media before you even gave Mr. Soudas a chance to respond and deal with the matter.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Nepean—Carleton, ON
And now we have documented proof that your chronology is false. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that is by error. But clearly you were in the process of speaking to members of the media before you could even reasonably have given Mr. Soudas a chance to receive the summons—in each possibility. You said you only signed the summons I think it was on Monday. So immediately the first thing you did, instead of waiting for that summons to be delivered, was run to the media.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Any statements I made, Mr. Poilievre, were with regard to whether or not I issued a summons, not with regard to delivery. You're splitting hairs. And I understand your statement, but the way it happens is that once the chair signs a summons, it's given to the clerk, who engages a bailiff, who then serves it.
The person to be served also is subject... They are both political staff. The House leader of the government had indicated on Tuesday at 10 a.m. in a statement to the House that political staff would not be permitted to attend and they were going to be represented by ministers. This is all in the public domain. Even in our steering committee meeting last Thursday we understood that this was likely the case to happen.
Our job now, respectfully to all our colleagues, is not to try to resolve the issue about whether ministers or political staff should appear. All we can do is report the facts to the House if it is the will of the committee to do that.
So I have Mr. Desnoyers, and then Mr. Paradis.
11:55 a.m.
Bloc
Luc Desnoyers Bloc Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC
Mr. Chair, to demonstrate our good faith and to try to resolve this situation, we in the Bloc Québécois are prepared to table this motion until Tuesday and to return immediately to the second item on the agenda, committee business.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Okay.
Please call the question, Mr. Clerk.
(Motion agreed to: yeas 6; nays 5)
The motion is tabled.
Mr. Easter, you had a motion for the committee?
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Wayne Easter Liberal Malpeque, PE
No, Mr. Chair. I'll not move the motion today. I believe we should go to committee business. I will deal with that motion another day. As the Bloc said, we're all willing to go to committee business on agenda item number 2.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Christian Paradis Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
Mr. Chair, I thought that you would give me the floor before the motion was tabled. I had a comment to make. I just want to remind everyone of one very important point, Mr. Chair.
Noon
Conservative
Christian Paradis Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
Mr. Chair, you gave me the floor. I sit as a legitimate member of the committee. I would like to make a point, Mr. Chair.
Noon
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Paul Szabo
Excuse me, Minister.
You were on the list to speak with regard to the last issue, with regard to the motion. That was the speakers list. The member who spoke before you made a motion to table the matter, which means to take it off the table. That motion carried. Our only recourse now is to move on to the next order of business of the committee.
Having said that, Minister, I want to thank you kindly for being so very patient. I have due respect for the ministry and for its role and its responsibilities in terms of accountability for its departments, and collectively, as part of the ministry for the government.
Having said that, colleagues, I hope you'll give me a little latitude here. I'd like to allow the minister to speak.
Noon
Conservative
Christian Paradis Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
Mr. Chair, I want to remind everyone of the following point. I am here today on behalf of my employee Sébastien Togneri. I appreciate the steps that have been taken to let me speak freely and the conversation we had before this committee meeting. I appreciate all that. But I wanted to remind everyone of a principle that is clearly set out by O'Brien and Bosc on pages 32 and 33 of their book:
Responsible government has long been considered an essential element of government based on the Westminster model. Despite its wide acceptance as being a cornerstone of the Canadian system of government, there are different meanings attached to the term “responsible government”. In a general sense, responsible government means that the government must be responsive to its citizens, that it must operate responsibly... and that its ministers must be accountable or responsible to Parliament. In terms of ministerial responsibility, ministers have both individual and collective responsibilities to Parliament...The principle of individual ministerial responsibility holds that ministers are accountable not only for their own actions as department heads, but also for the actions of their subordinates.
Noon
Conservative
Christian Paradis Conservative Mégantic—L'Érable, QC
The quotation continues:
Individual ministerial responsibility provides the basis for accountability throughout the system. Virtually all departmental activity is carried out in the name of the minister who, in turn, is responsible to Parliament for those acts. Ministers exercise power and are constitutionally responsible for the provision and conduct of government; Parliament holds them personally responsible for it.
End of quotation.