Information & Ethics Committee on June 17th, 2010

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you for being here, Minister.

Minister, in your letter of April 29 to the committee, in light of our concerns, I think we were concerned that we hadn't had a very detailed response to our report on the quick fixes on access to information. I think it's fair to say that one of your key concerns was that the recommendations would lead to increased costs. You mentioned that in your opening statements as well: that you thought in this time of fiscal restraint increased spending on access to information just wasn't in the cards.

Minister, have you or your department done studies on the specific costs of the recommendations that were in the report?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

We have not done any specific investigation into that.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Minister, can you explain to me how you reached the decision that it was unwise to pursue these issues given the fact that you believe it would cost more money?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

It's just one aspect of that. It seems to me that whenever you make changes to a piece of legislation like this, it can be very complex. I mean, it wasn't easy to bring in the first Access to Information Act in this country. So what I've been asking, on a regular basis, is to bring in people who are stakeholders, to bring in the individuals who would be affected by it. That's quite apart from cost considerations. Get their input into this before we make any further changes.

Again, I was very pleased... I didn't have direct responsibility for the changes that were made under the Federal Accountability Act, and again, any time you make changes in this area, it is a challenge, but this has been the main thrust of what I've been suggesting to you. Bring in some of the people, have them testify before this committee, and have a look at that. I'd be very interested to hear what you have to say.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Well, Minister, I know you're aware that over many years there have been many studies--I think you have even been involved in some of them, when you were in opposition--into the access to information regime in Canada. We've heard from many experts over those years, but frankly, that doesn't seem to be the bottom line for you in your response to the committee. The bottom line on any number of the issues was “without increasing the resources of the Information Commissioner”.

So again, I want to come back to how you reach that determination. If you had no studies, if you had no one work on that, how do you come to that conclusion so clearly on so many of those recommendations?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

It was pointed out by Mr. Kratchanov that in 2006 there was some estimate of the costs, but again, before we make changes, and indeed, to both pieces of legislation, whether it be the Privacy Act or the Access to Information Act, they have served this country well. That's my opinion. They have served this country well. I think it was a major change, a major improvement.

Again, if you remember my opening comments, I said that I'm a fan of the legislation, and that even though I didn't have responsibility for the Federal Accountability Act, I was one of those individuals who was very interested and very pleased to see that come forward. Why? Because it expands the number of institutions, including crown corporations, to which it applies. And that only makes sense, because they, too, are spending the taxpayers' money, and they are making decisions that affect people. I think these were steps forward.

So on the one hand, yes, I think there were those changes, and for other changes, I said I would love to have your input on that.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Minister, could you share that 2006 report that looked at the potential costs of changes to access to information?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Mr. Kratchanov, would you speak to that?

[Denis Kratchanov, Director and General Counsel, Information Law and Privacy Section, Department of Justice]

Yes. I think it's part of the document in 2006 that was given to this committee. We can certainly provide it again. There is an annex 1 of the 2006 discussion paper and there is a consideration of the costs included for the changes that were then being considered in the Reid bill.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you.

Minister, has there been any work done on potential cost savings of new approaches to access to information, such as, for instance, requiring more proactive disclosure of information and posting it on the website so people wouldn't have to go through the whole process of engaging an application for information and maybe having it turned down or having to wait or having a delay and that kind of thing? I--

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

That's a very good point. Sorry, go ahead.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Has the government undertaken a study of what costs might be saved in the system with that kind of approach?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I don't think there are any formal studies on that, but I agree with you. To the extent that we can make proactive disclosure, this is very helpful. In my capacity as Minister of Justice, I am asked on a regular basis whether we can put a certain report on the website. I think if you check, you'll see a steady stream that has come from my office over the last three and a half years.

Because I agree with you: by getting the information out there on a number of these studies, I think they're very helpful... Hopefully—again, it's hard to quantify these—you probably have fewer access to information requests once those are made available to the public. But I agree with you that to the extent possible, we can and should continue to make them available.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Minister, what's the relationship of the 2006 Conservative Party platform on access to information to the current government program? We know that by all accounts, by all reviews, it was an excellent platform on access to information. It had eight points.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

You don't have to limit it to access to information, Mr. Siksay. I mean, you could talk about 20 or 30 different areas--

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Well, we'll keep it to that one for right now. The government has completed one of those eight points. I wonder if it's still part of the agenda.

Do you hold yourselves accountable to what you proposed in 2006 on this? Can we expect any further movement? Or are you done and resting on the Accountability Act's laurels?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Well, I remember being at a number of press conferences in 2006 with respect to the whole question of access to information and accountability, so yes, I was very pleased.

If you'll remember, Mr. Siksay, in terms of the government's agenda throughout 2006—I remember it very well as government House leader—it was a priority to get the Federal Accountability Act through. As you know, it touches a number of different areas, and is consistent; as you point out, this was one of the promises we made to Canadians in 2006, so I was very, very pleased.

Again, in my role as government House leader, I made sure, to the extent possible, that it got debated and that we did everything possible to get it passed. I think it was really one of the great pieces of legislation that we got passed in our first term.

[Bill Siksay, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

But you'll agree that it was only one of the eight points your party promised in that election.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Well, again, I think it's a major part, but I'm open to suggestions. Again, having served on parliamentary committees for I think a little less than a decade, I know how valuable they can be in making input, and I look forward to further input from you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Thank you, Mr. Siksay.

If I may, just with regard to the costs issue that Mr. Siksay raised, annex 1 of the report from April 11, 2006, deals with a cost study from 1994, updated in 1999. It all has to do with the proposals by former Information Commissioner Reid. These costs deal with: adding institutions, which was done under the Federal Accountability Act; public register requirements; universal access; duty to document; time limits for investigations; and other proposals such as public awareness, training, monitoring, etc.--the education side.

Minister, I think Mr. Siksay's question was with regard to the quick fixes that were included in the report on updating the Access to Information Act. It was whether or not there had been some costing on those to the extent that there would be meaningful costs associated with them, because your representation actually had to do with the costs rationalization. I wonder if we—

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I don't have anything specific, but again, any time you expand any particular legislation, of course there are costs associated with that. I've had people raise the question with me every time we change the Criminal Code. There are those who think that some of that will cost more.

Again, Mr. Chairman, I didn't indicate that there's any particular study on it.

With respect to the quick fixes, it seems to me that my point has been that it's a little more complex and I'd like to see a more comprehensive approach to it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

Okay. We have no information that we could request to receive.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Paul Szabo]

It's your assessment, your personal assessment, on that, is that it? That's fine. Thank you.

Mrs. Block, please.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to our committee meeting today, Minister Nicholson.

Last week I noted in my remarks that in the time I have been a member of this committee, I have seen the potential for us to do some very meaningful work when it comes to access to information, privacy, and ethics. Last year, we embarked on following up on the recommendations made by two commissioners for those acts, and we had most recently talked about proactive disclosure and even open government.

You did quote Commissioner Marleau's acknowledgment that the Access to Information Act is “sound in terms of its concept and balance”. I think we as Canadians can all agree that we can be proud of our access to information laws and proud of the fact that our government and this committee continue to look at ways to improve them.

I consider the work of this committee, as I said earlier, to be of the utmost importance in looking at ways to reform the Access to Information Act. I would also like to point to an observation that is made in the government's follow-up response to our report on the ATIA.

In this response, Minister, you stated that “the ultimate test of any access to information legislation is not solely how it appears on paper but also how it operates in reality, that is, whether requesters can actually get access to government records in a timely manner”. I'm wondering if you would be willing to comment on this statement for us today.