Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 24th, 2011

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

We'll recommence with Mr. Dreeshen in the next round.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

Thank you very much.

Perhaps in my 20 seconds I won't have time to get into the detail I had wanted to, so I'll save that for another question.

You were talking about poaching and so on. I'm looking at The Lang and O'Leary Exchange. Obviously you had to find out how much they were being paid or what the costs were when they were with BNN. There must be some way.

[The Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

Mr. Dreeshen, your time is up. I'll allow Mr. Lacroix a very brief response.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

Certainly.

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

I'm not sure there is a question there, sir. If the question is how we got people to cross over and work for us, maybe they wanted to work for CBC, the public broadcaster, and what we bring to Canadians.

[The Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

Thank you, Mr. Lacroix.

Thank you, Mr. Dreeshen.

Mr. Boulerice, for five minutes.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

By way of introduction, I would like to mention that I am astonished to hear Mr. Del Mastro talk about who CBC/Radio-Canada should invite or not invite to its events. In fact, during the election campaign, the Conservative Party refused to allow people to attend its events simply because they had been seen at events organized by the Liberal Party or the NDP. I don't think he is in a position to teach anyone anything about who should be invited to events.

Mr. Lacroix, to go back to the heart of the matter, I would like to ask you a question. Your lovely Tab 1D deals with access to information performance as of November 22, 2011. The page is very nice. In looking at it, I get the impression that there are no problems and that above all, there have never been any problems, whereas that is not exactly the situation. There were problems.

If we had the same page for 2008, 2009, or 2010, the picture would be quite different. Earlier, you said that you were not prepared for the deluge of requests you received. At the same time, it was your responsibility to be prepared.

Why did it take so long for you to put in place the necessary resources to comply with the obligations of the act?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

This is how things unfolded.

We diligently looked into the matter. I explained to you that we looked at the situation in England. The BBC, which is five times larger than us, was receiving approximately 80 requests per month. We considered that the population in England is 70 million whereas in Canada it is 35 million, in other words half.

So, without knowing quite what to expect, because until that point we had never been subject to the act, we got prepared to deal with that, with a team of three or four people, I believe.

Obviously, we were caught completely by surprise. And I should add, we were not the only ones. People at the Access to Information and Privacy Office were also caught by surprise. We had to sit down and work to respond all of a sudden to 500 or 600 requests we received in the first three or four months.

There was a bottleneck at the commissioner's office and in our offices. Since then, we have learned some lessons and have improved. I'll be the first to admit that we were not good at it, but that we have made a great deal of progress since then.

This is why I am proud to point you to Tab 1D. We got an F grade for performance in the first few months, but I can assure you that we are working very hard so as not to get the same grade the next time the commissioner examines the matter.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

I would like to ask another question.

Recently, I met with employee representatives from Radio-Canada in Montreal and in Moncton who were rather concerned about their future and the future of your institution. They showed me a document that clearly showed that, since the early 1990s, there has been a drastic decrease in CBC/Radio-Canada's budget, in constant dollars. It was approximately 50% of the value of what you receive from Canadian taxpayers. In real terms, you are receiving less and less money.

Moreover, there is an expectation of cutbacks within all government departments in the order of 5% to 10%. Your regular programming and your obligations, as a public broadcaster, are unique and quite specific. You also have significant costs to bear for the shift to digital technology.

How will you manage this challenge without layoffs, a drop in Canadian programming, a drop in the quality of your programming? That is quite a challenge. You are receiving less and less funding, you must deal with cutbacks, and you have to pay for the digital shift.

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

We never appeared before the Standing Committee on Heritage or the government to ask for more funding for our 2015 strategic plan.

We are fully aware of what is happening in Ottawa and we have taken part actively and collegially in the exercise requiring that we present two scenarios, one a 5% cutback scenario, as well as a 10% cutback scenario, in the context of reducing the deficit.

Certainly a significant reduction in our government funding will have an impact. However, we have told everyone that we would be able to fund our 2015 strategic plan on our own. We have to make adjustments to our way of doing business. Some services will no longer be central for our 2015 plan and we may have to leave them aside. Some radio and television positions may be transferred to our new digital platforms. All this to say that—

this is not about money. Right now, this is about accountability.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

How much time do I have left?

[The Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

You have 30 seconds.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

I am asking my next question as a father. Do you intend to cut back on your children's programming?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

I have two little girls, one three-and-a-half years old and the other six months. I am very proud of our children's programming, both at CBC and at Radio-Canada. All aspects of our programming will be reviewed. I share your appreciation for our youth programs and navigating our websites to see our youth programming.

[The Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

Thank you, Mr. Lacroix.

Mr. Dreeshan.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

Thank you.

Maybe I'll have a little more time to expand upon where I want to go. Anyway, I appreciate what you mentioned for the last question I posed as well as your ability to get there without my being able to give the details.

I want to talk a bit about national and local programming and how it relates to section 68.1. I come from Red Deer, Alberta, where we lost all our local programming. I know that a lot of people there were very concerned about that. If someone were to ask for the rationale for your leaving a local market such as that, could this information have been obtained under section 68.1, or would it have been considered “journalistic”?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Frankly, it depends on how your question would have been worded. We're very open about what we want to do with the regions right now. We want to go back in the regions. It's very much core to the plan. The plan is Canadian programming in prime time, and a much better connection with the seven million Canadian who we think are underserved or not served by CBC/Radio Canada. This is why you've heard us announce three different phases of our local extension plan right now. Alberta and the western provinces are key because we have realized where the population has shifted, the demographics of this country. We think we are not doing as good a job as we could in local communities such as Red Deer, Alberta.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

I guess that's the point, because we did have a CBC station at one time.

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

I wasn't there when that happened.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

About our only connection right now is Ron MacLean. People are quite concerned about it. About a year ago now, and maybe not even in your term, an event took place in Fort McMurray that I attended. All of the other different news stations would come with their van. CBC came, and it looked like it was a champagne-type programming they were going through. The costs were so out of touch between the private companies and corporations. Therefore, people look at that and say, “Couldn't this have been done in a little bit more reasonable manner?” Again, if you asked for the costs for things like that, would that be covered under section 68.1?

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Unfortunately, you're bringing anecdotal evidence to me. I'm not sure what that means. I assume that no other broadcaster is in Red Deer, Alberta. Right?

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

This was a different one. This is a situation where everybody decided to go to another job in Fort McMurray.

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

I can assure you right now that the way we cover events is as efficient as we've ever been. I'd like to remind this committee that we have two networks, en français et en anglais. We have radio platforms, television platforms, and we have the Internet that we feed now constantly, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. So no other broadcaster does what we do.

I'm not justifying what happened on that day because I don't know what happened. But I would like to put into perspective the scope of the services of CBC/Radio-Canada. If we cover one story somewhere in the country, we do it in the most efficient way possible.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

Another point.... I was reading through your “Correcting the Record” section on point 2 of page 4. I know you both said you don't know who the requesters are. And I have to admit when I first looked at it, it said because Mr. Morrison hadn't identified himself, or the Friends of Canadian Broadcasting, that was the reason he got no response. When I first looked at it I was concerned that it doesn't matter who it is that is requesting. But I realized from reading further on that this indeed isn't the case. However, there certainly was a frustration by Mr. Morrison when he came here speaking about the fact that they weren't able to get information regarding accountability, entertainment, travel, and those types of expenses.

I wonder if you could comment somewhat on it. I know that you're perhaps looking more so at one of the key components that he mentioned in the committee. There is just this general feeling that if they as Friends of CBC want to see you succeed, they think perhaps you should be a little more forthcoming with the information that you present.

[Hubert T. Lacroix]

Thank you for that.

Madam Chairman, I'd like to make a point very clear. The Friends of Canadian Broadcasting are not friends of CBC. We have no link with this organization whatsoever. I've never spoken to Mr. Morrison. I've never had conversations with Mr. Morrison. I don't know this gentleman.

I was actually pretty blown away when, if you look at page 5 of the same document, Mr. Morrison said:

President Lacroix recently dismissed, or constructively dismissed SRC's Ombudsman. President Lacroix has a lot of power and without the accountability.

Where did that come from? I didn't fire Julie Miville-Dechêne. She went to a government-appointed position and now is présidente du Conseil du statut de la femme in Quebec, a very important organization with 80 people under her leadership. She decided to do this because it was a great opportunity for her. You just don't pick up the phone, cross the street, and become a government-appointed person of that stature without wanting this position.

This is the kind of credibility I have concerns about when Mr. Morrison.... And there's more there if you want to read it. I have an issue with those kinds of comments.