Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 2nd, 2012

[Charles King]

They're being paid.

[Jim Patrick]

If an executive director who's being paid is coming to see you in a professional capacity, it should be reported.

[Brad Butt, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Okay.

I'll give you an example. I'm on the human resources committee as well, and yesterday we had a representative who is a volunteer with the group Victims of Violence, and she made a deputation at committee. I haven't met with her, so that wouldn't be a registerable interaction, because she was at committee. But if she comes to see me personally to lobby me on a bill that's before the House, but she is a volunteer, your view is that the person should not be covered under the act, because it's different lobbying from paid lobbying.

[Charles King]

The 20% rule would apply here. If that's all this person does, and she's not paid--there is no remuneration whatsoever--and she spends two hours a year on this file, I would argue no. But if she's doing 40 hours a week in the office, and she's lobbying you 15 times a month, I would argue that we're going to have to look at it.

[The Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

I have to interrupt. Your time is well up. Could you just conclude?

[Charles King]

That has implications on legislation--stiffer criminal fines and all that kind of stuff.

[The Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

Mr. Capobianco, did you have a very brief comment on that?

[John Capobianco]

I was just going to say to Mr. Butt's point about companies, whether or not they come to government with respect to some sort of money issue, I think what the commissioner has done is take away the whole contingency success fee for lobbyists, which we agree with. So even if a lobbyist works for a company that comes to you, to government, or to any public office holder with respect to a potential lobbying activity that might gain that company some money, the lobbyist doesn't benefit from that, as it was in the past. We agree with that. That's another restriction that we all believe would stop that from being a potential conflict.

[The Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

Great. Thank you.

Mr. Dusseault, you have five minutes.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to continue along the same lines as my colleague regarding the Albany Club.

If I understand correctly, when it's a social event and no specific business is being discussed, you do not have to report it to the lobbying commissioner. It would seem to me that, regardless of whether the event was meant as a social activity or a business gathering, you could potentially discuss a certain file. People could strike up certain conversations, and a minister or a designated public office holder could discuss a particular file.

Should you consider reporting those kinds of meetings, even if they do not deal directly with business?

[John Capobianco]

It's no different, I think, from what Mr. Angus was saying about how the NDP caucus or members would gather at a specific bar on a specific night, and there are people who might know that there are NDP, Bloc, or Liberal members who congregate at a certain bar for a social activity. Any lobbyist or anybody who happens to be in the government relations industry may know that, may attend that, and may be speaking with MPs about a specific issue.

Arranged or not arranged, I think it's incumbent upon us that at any event, be it the Albany Club or be it any restaurant.... Where you see somebody at an event that happens to be social, if there's work being done or if there are discussions being portrayed to that particular MP, it would be upon on us as lobbyists to report that, I think, if it's in good faith. We would do that because we believe in trying to ensure that any rule that's there, we're going to abide by; we've told our members that. We adhere to those rules.

So whether or not it's the Albany Club—and you seem to be specializing on the Albany Club—it's the same as if it would be at Hy's or if we were at a social event for a charity group and we're talking to politicians. If business is being exchanged, we would record that.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Very well.

I have a question on the latest figures. Since 2009, the number of lobbyists has gone from 5,626 to 5,129 now. So it has dropped. Over the past three years, the number of lobbyists has dropped. I am not sure whether you have an explanation for that or not.

Are the rules too lax? Have people stopped registering or has the number dropped because people are no longer doing this type of work?

[Charles King]

We have seen a drop because of the five-year rule. As a result, fewer people come into the system. Most people who worked on Parliament Hill would become lobbyists after they left. But that isn't allowed anymore. I think the numbers will drop because of that rule.

Another consideration is that there are 5,000 registered lobbyists. My association has 300 members, most of which are large lobbying firms here in Ottawa. On top of that, you have all the big companies. A large number of people are not members of our association, and we do not know who they are.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

So there are lobbying groups who are affiliated with one another, but some lobbyists are not connected to any group.

[Charles King]

Precisely.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

Mr. Capobianco, is there anything you would like to add?

[John Capobianco]

I would agree, actually, sir. The five-year rule—which is why we're suggesting it be put down to one—I think is very limiting for a lot of folks who either want to get into government or work for a particular member or minister and who know that when they leave they're bound within the five-year rule to be excluded from a specific profession. I think that's limiting. I think folks who may choose to take the career of going into government know they can't be a lobbyist for five or six years, so I think that has a huge effect.

I also believe, too, that a lot of them are going in-house, as opposed to joining lobbying firms and so forth. So I think there are a lot of reasons for that.

But generally speaking, though, of the lobbyists that are registered now, I think a lot of them are quite proud to be part of the profession. I think that's why you see that number still staying within the 5,000 range.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

I will wrap up with one last question.

The lobbying commissioner told us that she felt she did not have enough authority to enforce the act. With that in mind, do you think that tougher penalties or fines could help with compliance, and prevent lobbyists from failing to register or comply with the act?

[Charles King]

You have to respect the process. If the rules are clear and very simple, there won't be any problem.

[Pierre-Luc Dusseault, NDP, Sherbrooke, QC]

What about fines?

[The Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

Excuse me, Mr. Dusseault. Your time is up. Thank you very much.

Mr. Dreeshen, for five minutes.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Welcome to our guests.

I have just a couple of comments.

First of all, Mr. King, you talked about different types of lobbyists. I wonder if you could review for everyone just what their roles are, because I think that's important as well.

[Charles King]

Right now there are three categories of lobbyist. There are consultant lobbyists, who work for lobbying firms. There are corporate lobbyists, who work for corporations. Then there are organization lobbyists, and the majority of those would be not-for-profit organizations. Those are the three categories. We're all bound by the same rules in the sense that we all have to register, we all have to file our monthly reports, and we all have to respect the Lobbying Act.

As for where there are exemptions, there is an exemption right now for anybody who spends less than 20% of their time lobbying. Then you are exempt from the regulation. That 20% is a pretty complex calculation, but it's everything: all the time you spend drafting your materials, talking to your fellow executives about it, and travelling to the meeting. The two hours you spend dreaming about this presentation, I would argue, have to go in as part of the 20%. That's the only exemption out there.

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer, AB]

When you're looking at the 20% rule, does it vary whether you're a consultant lobbyist or a corporate or organization lobbyist?

[Charles King]

That 20% only applies to corporate lobbyists.

If you're a consultant lobbyist, you're a lobbyist. I mean, what else are you doing today? Are you planting tomatoes? You're lobbying; it's very clear. If you're in an association, it's the same thing.