Information & Ethics Committee on Feb. 7th, 2012

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

I did have some interest in the Lobbying Act, but I wanted to talk specifically about the five-year cooling-off period.

I believe Ms. Denham mentioned the installation of an administrative monetary penalty that would seek to make sure that the code of conduct was adhered to. Perhaps you could take a look at that. It's something we've heard from other witnesses before the committee. I'd be stretching the truth a bit if I suggested that some groups representing lobby firms had indicated they were in favour of administrative monetary penalties; they're not, but it is an interesting suggestion.

From each of the witnesses, if you have a cooling-off period in your territory, how long would it be for a former public office holder to be able to work as a lobbyist? Could we just go across the table?

[Bradley Odsen, General Counsel, Lobbyists Act Registrar, Office of the Ethics Commissioner]

If I may, in Alberta there is a cooling-off period. It's contained, however, in the Conflicts of Interest Act, not in the lobbyist legislation. For ministers, it's one year for lobbying the ministry, but they can lobby other elements of government. For senior government officials and former political staff, it's six months.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Six months for others, okay.

Ms. Morrison.

[Lynn Morrison]

In Ontario, under the Members' Integrity Act, the ministers have a one-year post-employment restriction, and the ministers' staff have a one-year post-employment restriction under the Public Service of Ontario Act. That is a restriction from lobbying their former ministry or ministries that they worked for 12 months prior to their departure.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Suppose I use an example. If they were working in the Ministry of Transportation, nothing would prevent them from immediately lobbying the Ministry of Education, for example.

[Lynn Morrison]

That's correct.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Is there any restriction on parliamentary assistants?

[Lynn Morrison]

Parliamentary assistants, no.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

There's not, okay.

[Lynn Morrison]

It depends on the circumstances too.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Okay.

[Lynn Morrison]

Depending on the ministry they were involved in and where they're going.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Okay, thank you.

Monsieur?

[François Casgrain]

In Quebec, former ministers are prohibited for two years from engaging in lobbying, in this case as consultant lobbyists with any public office holder or colleagues on the council of ministers. Nor can they lobby as enterprise or organization lobbyists with former colleagues or in the departments with which they had been associated. Some prohibitions also apply to members of ministers' offices. In this case, the prohibition is for only one year. In the case of other public office holders, for example, deputy ministers and people with the opportunity of being near the centre of decision, some restrictions apply and generally last for one year.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

Ms. Denham, you have the floor.

[Elizabeth Denham]

In B.C., like Alberta, under the Members' Conflict of Interest Act, there is a one-year cooling-off period for ministers.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

Is there anything for anyone else, political staff or parliamentary secretaries or assistants?

[Elizabeth Denham]

No, I don't believe so.

[Dean Del Mastro, Conservative, Peterborough, ON]

One year for ministers. Okay.

I want to come back to this issue of administrative monetary penalties. Currently the federal commissioner has the ability to relay things to the RCMP if she believes there's been an egregious violation of the act or a violation of the act. It's a fairly significant step to refer something like this to the RCMP and to have it investigated by the national police force. While I would not want to take that ability away from the commissioner, if she feels something very egregious has happened I think it's entirely appropriate.

Do you think in some cases it would be inappropriate? It would seem to me that if there was an opportunity to assess an administrative monetary penalty, you might also have better compliance with the act, simply because the only option for the commissioner right now is to refer things to the RCMP. She might not want to do that unless it's very significant. So if you're in the grey area, something that might get you an administrative monetary penalty and bring you back into compliance might not be significant enough for her to refer it to the RCMP. Do you see where I'm going with it?

Do you see instances when referring something to the RCMP might be excessive, whereas an administrative monetary penalty might be more appropriate?

[Bradley Odsen]

It's our view in Alberta. We certainly do have the power to initiate a prosecution if we want to do so, so we would be referring it to the police, but we also have the authority to issue administrative penalties. As the commissioner indicated, while we have not yet done so, we're going to be moving in that direction shortly.

I can tell you I've had calls from lobbyists who have committed technical breaches, as we refer to them, saying inadvertently they're two days late in their renewal. They're really sorry it happened for this and this or whatever reason, and please don't fine them; they're working really hard to get it in, and that kind of thing. My point is that I think it does encourage compliance and paying much more attention to it. There's that side of it. And then, of course, the other point is you're absolutely right, there are all kinds of things like that where it's just not appropriate to be referring it to the RCMP or a police service.

[The Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

Thank you, Mr. Odsen.

We're well over time, but I am going to allow the other commissioners a very brief comment in response to Mr. Del Mastro, but please keep it brief.

[Lynn Morrison]

Although I don't have any powers to issue monetary penalties, I do believe that referring an issue to the OPP in Ontario because somebody filed three days late is a waste of its time, and I think it's much better handled to give the commissioner the discretion as to what should be done.

[The Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

Mr. Casgrain.

[François Casgrain]

I think the lobbyists commissioner is best suited to conduct these inquiries from start to finish. The commissioner is the one who knows the act and must apply it and interpret it. People from the outside, such as members of police forces or even directors of public prosectutions, are used to administering the Criminal Code, but this is something completely different. That's why I think the lobbyists commissioner is best suited to do this.

[The Chair, NDP, Jean Crowder]

Ms. Denham.