Evidence of meeting #21 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lobbyists.
A recording is available from Parliament.
General Counsel, Lobbyists Act Registrar, Office of the Ethics Commissioner
Thank you.
It's our view that it's important for all officers of the legislature to have an immunity provision in their enabling statute. Without that immunity, as legal counsel, general counsel, to the commissioner, anytime virtually anything comes up where there's the potential for either an investigation or a prosecution naming a person, or one of those kinds of things, I would have to advise the commissioner that we must be aware that doing anything would have the potential for an action against him personally and against our office. Having that immunity cuts that off right at the pass. You're now able to go ahead and do your job the way you're supposed to do it.
Integrity Commissioner, Office of the Integrity Commissioner of Ontario
I would agree with Mr. Odsen. I think it's absolutely essential that we are able to do what's necessary to conduct an inquiry if necessary. If we didn't have it, it could be detrimental to our ability to carry out our responsibilities.
Lobbyists Commissioner, Quebec Lobbyists Commissioner
I think it's crucial that the commissioner have immunity for his inquiries and the reports he submits. Furthermore, he's an officer of the National Assembly. He's a designated person, as we say in Quebec. All designated people have immunity, whether the person is an ombudsman, the auditor general, the chief electoral officer or the ethics commissioner.
We think that it is essential that the commissioner also be given that immunity to ensure that his work is done in the interest of the House, of which he is an officer.
Registrar of Lobbyists for British Columbia, Office of the Information and Privacy Commissioner of British Columbia
I believe that the other agents of Parliament—I could be wrong—have immunity against prosecution. It's logical. It makes sense.
Conservative
Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON
Thank you.
One of the other things we've heard some difference of opinion on is the process itself. How is the investigation undertaken, and what triggers that process? In our system, only the lobbyists file reports. It's strictly a complaints process. How is it handled in your jurisdictions? Do you have any cross-references filed so that you're able to determine whether or not things are being done? Is it a complaints process in your jurisdictions? Do you just rely on people complaining about their competitors, hoping you catch the ones who need to be caught?
NDP
Ethics Commissioner, Lobbyists Act Registrar, Office of the Ethics Commissioner of Alberta
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I wanted to put in a line that I had in my opening remarks. We cannot conceive of any valid reason to deny immunity to an officer of Parliament, with respect.
General Counsel, Lobbyists Act Registrar, Office of the Ethics Commissioner
Thank you, Madam Chair.
In Alberta we can self-initiate an investigation. However, we have not done so. There have been two investigations conducted, and both were in response to complaints. You need a lot more resources if you're going to go down that road. At this point, we simply don't have those resources, so it's very unlikely that we would be doing much in that regard.
Integrity Commissioner, Office of the Integrity Commissioner of Ontario
Obviously I don't have any powers of investigation at the moment. One of the things I've relied on very heavily is moral suasion, and it's worked very well in Ontario. However, that's not to say that it's the right answer. It's the best I can do under the circumstances.
However, if you are talking about putting an onus on the public office holder to do something that can match up with the registration of the lobbyists, I don't believe it should be a public office holder's responsibility. Yes, I do everything I can under my jurisdiction as Integrity Commissioner and Lobbyists Registrar to educate at least ministers and their staff about lobbying. But I don't think they should have to be producing documents other than their calendars or whatever is required in an investigation. I don't think they should have to be filing a document.
Lobbyists Commissioner, Quebec Lobbyists Commissioner
In Quebec, one of the commissioner's responsibilities is to provide monitoring and oversight. Not only does he have the authority to investigate when matters are brought to his attention, but he can also initiate inquiries himself. However, before investigating, an audit must be done. We don't open an inquiry before that.
He also has the authority for monitoring. He can monitor target sectors or groups. Take for example the matter of shale gas. We knew that lobbying was going on, given that it was a developing industry. So instead of waiting to catch people, we were proactive. We tried to make sure they were well aware of the act and that they were going to comply with it. It was successful. Because of the lobbyists commissioner's actions, many lobbyists did register, understand the act better and are aware that they were engaging in lobbying in some situations.
I think this is extremely important. I've often said that I don't want to be considered a police officer, even though I have the authority to investigate. I prefer to help people understand why we have a lobbying act and why it's important to comply with it.
Registrar of Lobbyists for British Columbia, Office of the Information and Privacy Commissioner of British Columbia
The focus of our legislation is on transparency in lobbying activities, not public office holder activities. For a detailed answer to the question I'd like to turn it over to my colleague Jay Fedorak.
Jay Fedorak Acting Deputy Registrar, Office of the Registrar of Lobbyists for British Columbia
We have a detailed compliance strategy document that I can provide to the clerk that goes over it in detail. In addition to taking complaints, we verify the information when it's first entered. If our staff spot any issues, that could provoke some questions. We also do environmental scanning by following stories in the media and government press releases that suggest there might be some lobbying activity. Then we look into it from there.
We only use the formal investigation as an avenue of last resort when we can't resolve any issues that arise through talking the parties through the registration process and getting them to register properly.
NDP
The Chair NDP Jean Crowder
Thank you.
Before I go to the next two speakers I'm going to check in with the committee here. We really only have time for two more members to ask questions. I don't know if the committee has an ability to stay for a couple of minutes to allow two more questioners.
NDP
The Chair NDP Jean Crowder
A number of members can't stay. Okay, we'll wrap it up with the next two. These are five-minute rounds.
We'll hear from Monsieur Dusseault, and then Mr. Butt.
NDP
Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you to everyone who testified today. I think holding meetings is the best way to improve on the federal government side of things. It's important to see what is being done elsewhere, in the provinces. In everything we do in life, it's good to go elsewhere to improve.
I'm glad you are here, and I'm glad to have heard about how lobbying is regulated in the provinces. I also found it interesting that the commissioner of Quebec has such significant investigative powers. I think we should go ahead with that on the federal government side. We should let the commissioner, not the RCMP, have this responsibility. The RCMP did not follow up in any of the cases, and that's unfortunate.
I'd also like the committee to invite the RCMP to appear. Unfortunately, when we asked to invite them to testify, the members voted against it. Be that as it may, there is a consensus here that the commissioner should have this investigative power.
I'd like to ask Mr. Casgrain a question and hear what he has to say about partisan activities. Ms. Denham, from British Columbia, spoke about this briefly.
Mr. Casgrain, I'd like to know what you think about partisan activities. Could you tell me how they are regulated in Quebec under the lobbying act?
Lobbyists Commissioner, Quebec Lobbyists Commissioner
Quebec is one of the only jurisdictions with a code of conduct that can lead to penalties, meaning criminal sanctions, including disciplinary action for non-compliance with rules. As for lobbying, the Lobbyists’ Code of Conduct has provisions dealing with professionalism and respect for public institutions. Part of this respect comes from always telling the truth, providing complete information, avoiding undue benefits, and—I think that’s what they said in the Lobbyists’ Code of Conduct—making sure that public office holders do not go against their own ethical rules. Members of Parliament must follow certain rules so that they do not find themselves in a conflict of interest. Lobbyists therefore shall not place them in a conflict of interest.
I for one am not in favour of a general prohibition because I don’t think that is what we are looking for. Perhaps it is because I am a former chief electoral officer, but I really don't think we should discourage people from getting involved in politics, at whatever level. We obviously have to make sure that active lobbyists do not end up placing ministers or members of Parliament in a conflict of interest. It depends on the facts. If they need to provide names to be able to volunteer, there is no problem with that. But if it is really about a quid pro quo, then it is a whole different story. So we have to be able to determine what the situation is. I don’t think we have had any problems like that in Quebec so far. However, there might have been some at the federal level, but we have not had to deal with those types of problems in Quebec so far.
NDP
Pierre-Luc Dusseault NDP Sherbrooke, QC
My understanding is that you are dealing more with individual cases and you look at whether influence has actually been an issue.