Evidence of meeting #103 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mario Dion  Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Sandy Tremblay  Director, Corporate Management, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Daniel Therrien  Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Barbara Bucknell  Director of Policy and Research, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Daniel Nadeau  Director General and Chief Financial Officer, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Zimmer

Good morning, everyone.

This is the Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics, meeting number 103. Today, pursuant to Standing Order 81(4), we are considering main estimates 2018-19, vote 1 under the Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying, vote 1 under the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, vote 1 under the Office of the Senate Ethics Officer, votes 1 and 5 under the Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioner of Canada, referred to the committee on Monday, April 16.

This morning we welcome, from the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Mr. Dion.

Go ahead.

May 1st, 2018 / 8:45 a.m.

Mario Dion Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, and thank you, honourable members of the committee for inviting me to appear this morning as the committee considers the budgetary submission for 2018-19.

I am accompanied by Ms. Sandy Tremblay, our Director of Corporate Management and Chief Financial Officer.

It's been almost four months, and only four months, since I started as commissioner. When I arrived at the office in January, as I said when I last appeared before you, I found a well-organized office, a fully staffed office with effective structures and processes in place. I am therefore in the envious situation of being able to focus on the matters that should require some improvements as opposed to having to rebuild and reimagine what should have been there as has been the case before once in my career. I've done that.

In fact, when I showed up the morning of January 9, my office had already submitted the estimates for the fiscal year 2018-19. I quickly reviewed them and saw no reason to revise anything. They seemed perfectly appropriate, so I did approve the $6.9 million that was submitted for that purpose. To provide some context for this figure, this $6.9 million, I'd like to discuss some of our office's priorities in terms of how we intend to fulfill our mandate in the coming year.

Under the approach the office will take under my leadership, one of the first things was to develop a mission statement for the office. We did that, and in February, we came up with the following mission statement, which I'll read to you. It's not long. Our office “provides independent, rigorous and consistent direction and advice”—we do both—“to members of Parliament and federal public office holders.”

It also “conducts investigations”—that's the second thing we do—“and, where necessary”, the third thing we do is we “make...use of appropriate sanctions in order to ensure full compliance with the Conflict of Interest Code for Members of the House of Commons and the Conflict of Interest Act.”

The office is an institution that serves an important purpose. Our role is to contribute to the announcement of Canadians' trust and confidence in elected members of Parliament and appointed public office holders. The mission statement reflects our responsibility for administering to similar but distinct, quite different in fact, regimes and various means, some preventive, others reactive by which we will do so.

The mission statement will be hung in our meeting rooms. It serves to remind our staff that our day-to-day work is governed by the very rules we administer and to help keep our focus on what matters most.

I think it's important that external audiences also have a better sense of what we do.

That's why I spent some time developing the mission statement and will spend some time broadcasting the mission statement.

In addition to doing that, we've also refreshed our office's brand identity. We've done some branding not only because it's fashionable, but also because I think it is important to have a distinguishable appearance in the products that we release. I hope you'll like it. You'll see it when we table our annual report next month. Early next month, we will table our annual reports, I should say—one under the act, one under the code—and you will see new colours and a new appearance.

I think our effort was to—and I think we have successfully communicated our independent and impartial character, the nature of the work we do and the way we do it, which is to say with integrity, rigour, and consistency. That's also important—consistency.

The second thing that had almost been completed when I arrived was the strategic plan, which describes our priorities for the next three years. It was already well advanced. Since the direction set in that document was in line with my vision, we decided to approve it after making a number of minor changes to it. You will also be able to read it in the annual report that we will be presenting at the beginning of June.

The plan identifies priorities in three key areas.

Education and outreach is such an area.

As I told you in my previous appearance, I want to make sure public office holders and Members of the House of Commons have the information they need to understand a somewhat complex set of rules and to be in a position to actively meet their obligations at all times. In fact, my goal is the following: if they do contravene the Act or the Code, it will not be because of ignorance, nor will it be by omission or a lack of awareness.

In order to provide education, we will go beyond the traditional classroom approach and leverage instead new-media technologies to reach out to our clients, through webinars and online videos, for example. People who are governed by the Code and the Act are busy and don’t always have time to travel to spend two hours in a classroom doing training. They must be able at anytime to consult vignettes, videos, and webinars that explain any given aspect of the Act. It would be very short, very precise, very thorough, but also very accessible.

Similarly, last March, we signed a memorandum of understanding with the Commissioner of Lobbying to work together on the development of common products since Nancy Bélanger’s mandate and mine somewhat overlap. This, in turn, will allow us to conceive products that will be useful to our community.

In the coming months, we will review all of our educational materials and revise them as necessary, which will allow us to reach our goal.

When public office holders and Members seek advice from my Office, we aim to provide them with clear and consistent direction every time. Everyone should receive the same information. It’s very important that we be consistent and not give contradictory information.

I have already made it clear that I will strictly enforce the Act and the Code by investigating, as promptly as possible, potential contraventions of both regimes, and by making use of appropriate sanctions when contraventions are found.

We will also make greater use of the media to inform the public about our activities, to the extent permitted by the Act.

As far as modernization is concerned, we have replaced our financial management system and started upgrading our electronic case management system. We are also planning the redesign of our website in the next fiscal year.

I’ve thus summarized for you the activities pertaining to education and to the modernization of the systems used.

The third sector is that of operational excellence. We wish to focus on accountability, leadership, integrity, transparency, and stewardship.

I therefore have much to do in the coming months. I intend to review all of the policies that are on our website and to update them as necessary to reflect best practices in public sector management.

Generally speaking, this is what we’re doing.

I will now talk about budgetary requirements.

Barring unexpected increases in the demands on our resources, I expect our office will be able to implement its mission in 2018-19 with an annual operating budget of $6.9 million as we have sought.

Salaries account for the majority, 81%, of our expenditures. We're fully staffed. We typically experience a low employee turnover which is a good thing, because it's a very specialized line of work. It takes time. There's a long learning curve for people who join the office.

We have 49 positions in total, and 18 of those positions are directly used to provide advice to public office holders and MPs. The other positions are used in corporate services, communications, outreach, legal services, investigations, and in my own office.

Major expenditures this year include the upgrade of our electronic case management system. We talk about consistency. We talk about accuracy and rigour, so it's important to rely on state of the art when it comes to the system we use.

We we will also modernize the public registry and redesign our website. There will also be a cost associated with the MOU with the Commissioner of Lobbying.

We will make full use of our budget, for the first time ever, this year.

For the last year, our surplus is less than 2% of the budget. This year, it will be lower because we basically have granted pay increases to our employees. We will be able to live within our means, barring something really unforeseen, but it will be much tighter this year than it was last year.

In fact, you may not know this, but the budget of $6.9 million is the same budget as when the office was first created 11 years ago. It is essentially at the same level, $6.9 million. The budget was never fully spent. In fact, I brought a graph with me which shows the distance between approval and usage. There's always a big gap. I think the lines will cross this year on expenditure and budget.

We've had significant increases in some areas; for instance, there was a 22% increase last year in the number of situations where advice was sought—22% is quite something. We have 2,900 situations where people have sought advice, which is much more than the 2,400 the year before.

Public communications, probably in large part due to the Morneau situation and “The Trudeau Report”, but nevertheless, went up 30%. Contact with the public and contact with the media in the last fiscal year went up by 30% compared to the year before that. In case you were wondering, we had 2,700 situations where the public was in touch with us. The public means people who are not subject to the act and are not media representatives. The media was in touch with us 411 times last year, compared to 315 times the year before that.

We've accommodated this within the existing budget. It's becoming tighter. We'll make better use of technology. I think it's quite predictable that, if things remain as they are currently, we will need an additional injection of resources in future fiscal years. However, my team and I will do everything we can this year to live within our allocated budget, although there are supplementary estimates that we know exist, and if there is a compelling reason to do so, we will be making a submission.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Zimmer

Thank you, Mr. Dion.

8:55 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mario Dion

Mr. Chairman, I was finished anyway.

That concludes my remarks.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Bob Zimmer

Thank you, Mr. Dion.

First up is Mr. Baylis for seven minutes.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Thank you for coming, Mr. Dion.

First of all, I see that you have been very busy over the last four months.

I would like to start with the changes that you’ve made. Is your mission statement completely new or was there already something in place?

8:55 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mario Dion

There was already something in place that I reviewed. It was not very well known, even within the Office. It was a little more muddled and vague. That's why I felt I should rewrite the mission statement to make it very clear.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Was it vague for your employees or for everyone?

8:55 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mario Dion

It was for me, which means that it probably was for other people as well. That's why I decided to revamp it slightly.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

This was really part of your duty to frame the objectives of your Office, was it not?

8:55 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mario Dion

That's it. The goal is to have a type of alignment so that people know what we're trying to accomplish everyday. It will be front and centre in our Office. People governed by the Act and the Code will also know what we do and do not do in life. They will also be able to hold us accountable.

We're committed to doing things accurately and thoroughly. It might not always have been the case. We will try to be more thorough and coherent. As such, these are the commitments we're making in a mission statement, which will be useful both internally and externally.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

With this new mission statement, you did an overview of your department and you saw where there might be some needs. You've identified three areas that you want to work on. Is that correct?

9 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mario Dion

In fact, those are the only three areas that my office should be concerned with and has been concerned with in the past. It simply serves to clarify with as much precision as possible that we do three things in life. We do preventive work. Our office provides direction and advice. There's a distinction between advice and direction.

We also sometimes get in touch with MPs and public office holders, even though they have not called us. For instance, when you were elected the first time, we did communicate with you to require you to make an initial statement. That's an example of providing direction.

We also provide advice. In the course of doing the first declaration or when your office wants to know something precisely about a situation that is arising, we will provide advice. That's the first thing we do, and that's what we burn the majority of our resources on—preventative.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

—on preventative.

You touched on education and dissemination of information. When you talk about education, you're talking about not just educating the people who are subject to the act or the code. Is your staff going to be upgraded too? Are you educating all around? Things are changing rather rapidly, as we know.

Is the educational goal aimed at all employees?

9 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mario Dion

First and foremost, we don't have the resources to do much more than the people who are governed by the act and the code. We start there. That's the most important thing, and it's not done completely at this point in time. We can do much more and much better. We will not, at this point in time, do anything other than what we do except maybe tweet a bit more for the 545 people who follow us. We hope to increase that number to 1,000, which is not much, before this year is over. That is still modest but achievable.

We will focus on the people governing. That is where it counts the most. That's where the education matters the most vis-à-vis the objective, which is to make sure that the act and the code are respected.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Part of respecting the act is really to understand the act.

9 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

9 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

For example, in my personal experience, when I was first elected, I didn't know anything about the act, and there was a lot of work. I would have benefited from more education on how to navigate it. I would definitely agree with you on the part that the more we're educated, the more likely we are to be able to make sure we properly follow it.

9 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mario Dion

The premise is that people who are elected to Parliament are usually law-abiding. It is important to give them the tools to make sure that, through omission, they don't do something they will come to regret.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

In the light that you're adding more emphasis on education, you have 49 full-time staff. Could you give me an idea how they're assigned? What are the different groupings of people?

9 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mario Dion

We have 18 people who are providing direction and advice, and who are also involved in education. It's not their main job, but they are the most knowledgeable in the office. Those 18 people actually end up not setting up the logistics of training but the provision of substantive training.

We have eight people in legal services and investigations, three lawyers and five non-lawyers in the group, who work very closely together. They are supervised by the same person.

We have 11 people in what we call corporate services, finance, human resources, IM and IT, who essentially make sure we have proper policies in place to manage people, money, information holding, and so on and so forth.

We have eight people in communications and outreach who are the drivers of the education that we're talking about. They are in charge. They are responsible to see to it that the videos I was talking about and the webinars are developed and delivered, even though they will draw on compliance and advisory to actually create the substance, because the knowledgeable people are in compliance and advisory positions.

My office has four people.

That's the breakdown.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Approximately 40%, 18 of the 49, are derived directly for case work interfacing with the different actors.

9:05 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mario Dion

They do nothing but that, and they're not managers either. It's more than 18 if you include management.

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Then you add another six that are in communication.

9:05 a.m.

Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner

Mario Dion

There are eight people in communication.