Evidence of meeting #103 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Together, more than 50% of your staff is driven toward looking outside to either provide advice, direction, or communication.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
That's right.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Commissioner, for your attendance. You're a frequent visitor to this committee, and you're always welcome.
It's interesting to see the venture into social media, and I'm sure you are following some of the other responsibilities that this committee has with some of the dangers therein.
Could you, for the record and for our large television audience, advise us of your Twitter handle?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I have some staff in the room. They will write down the Twitter handle and give it to me because it's not polite to take out my iPhone.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Will you be considering Facebook Live at some time in the near future?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I don't think so, because it's a fine balance, using these tools. Our office has to project an image of seriousness and professionalism, and I'm not sure Facebook does that all the time.
The Twitter handle is @CIEC_CCIE. It's federally regulated, so we have to be called that. We have no choice. It's not very user-friendly, but that's what the department is called.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Is it fair to assume that most of the content in these tweets will be advisory, will be reminders rather than updates on investigations?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Essentially, we cannot update on investigations. Most of them will be advisory. One new practice I have instituted is that we will tweet also when we impose a penalty. The minute it's put on the registry, the same day, it will be tweeted so that media representatives, for instance, who want to keep track, or political offices, will be able to. They won't have to look at the registry every morning to see whether something has happened.
Also, when we table a report, we will have several tweets on the findings in the report, as opposed to a single tweet attaching the report. We'll try to decipher the report for our Twitter followers.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Can you tell us, without compromising any of the other investigations you might have, how many other major investigations are under way by your office?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
“Major” is a very tricky thing. It's very subjective.
We have seven investigations, including the one involving Minister Morneau, and we have eight other matters that we are currently looking at in order to determine whether we should investigate. That's a total of 15 cases under active consideration, including seven investigations.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
These other matters that you're considering investigating haven't been provoked by requests from members for investigation, but they have come to your attention.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Some are the result of a complaint made by some members of Parliament, and some others are at my own volition under the act and the code.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Right.
A lingering question that I have involves unacceptable gifts. You made it clear and the Prime Minister has indirectly made clear that unacceptable gifts do not have to be registered. That prompts any number of questions.
Do you think unacceptable gifts need to be reported and publicized? In other words, if an unacceptable gift is received but given back only because it has been identified as an unacceptable gift, do you not agree that perhaps there should be a consideration or a process to report the offering of an unacceptable gift, particularly by a registered lobbyist or representative of a lobby organization?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Mr. Chair, by answering this question, I'm wandering into the area of potential legislative review, because under the current act, it is very clear that an unacceptable gift does not have to be declared.
If the committee or the government were considering legislative review, I would say that the spirit of the act is that, first of all, you don't accept a gift that cannot be accepted. Some people realize a few hours or a few days after they've accepted a gift that it should not have been accepted. If you return the gift, you should be forgiven. If you keep the gift for five years and then suddenly decide to return it, maybe that should be sanctioned. It's a question of facts. Each case is a question of facts, and by their very nature, some gifts cannot be returned. They can be reimbursed but not returned. Therefore, this has to be carefully looked at.
The intent of the current act is that you don't accept gifts that should not be accepted. When gifts can be taken to mean that they can influence you in your future decisions and actions, you simply don't accept them and that's the end of the story. You only have to declare gifts that are acceptable, that are in excess of $200, 30 days after they've been received, and 60 days in the case of the code applicable to MPs.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
You've made clear in your mission statement that you will provide independent, rigorous, and consistent direction and advice to members, and I assume, to government. Will you be making a recommendation in the annual report with regard to strengthening the act and the code, and requesting greater, meaningful penalties as you've discussed with us previously?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
In the upcoming annual report, I will refrain from doing so, because I think it's too soon. I would like to have the benefit of a few more months of active practice before starting to make any pronouncement about what would be good or not good.
All I have are the recommendations that were made by my predecessor. I've gone through them. I disagree with some of them. I'd like some maturity in the process to set in before I do that.
My hope is that I'll be asked next fall to express a point of view. If I'm not being asked, then I will have something in the annual report for 2018-19 that will be tabled in June of 2020.
Conservative
Peter Kent Conservative Thornhill, ON
Would you expect to be asked by this committee or by the government?
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I think the natural place for it to happen would be this committee, based on my historical observations.
Conservative
Conservative
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Commissioner, we have had very long, involved, ongoing conversations with your predecessor at this committee about many wide-ranging issues. This committee, I guess, is the interface for parliamentarians on trying to bring forward recommendations on how we work well with the act.
I think that the education component, as my colleague had raised, is really important. I don't find that many parliamentarians are aware of how the office works, for instance, proactively calling the office to check in, which I think would save a lot of people a lot of grief in the long term. It may not be top of mind, so I'd like to ask your ideas on how you could start a better relationship with MPs as well, so we can start to talk about how we work.
Ordinary MPs are not designated public office holders. We're not the senior bureaucrats. We're the ones who are out going to three and four events a night, getting dinners and talking to people. Having clear rules means a clear conversation.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I appreciate your comments, Mr. Angus. I fully agree, Mr. Chair, with what the member has said.
We will put a lot of attention on developing modern approaches to doing that. I think it would also be important that MPs be encouraged by their leaders and whips to make use of those tools. It takes two to tango, as you know. We can develop all we want. It has to be well known. But the MPs, nevertheless, have to go and click and have a look, and listen carefully for a few minutes.
