Information & Ethics Committee on May 29th, 2019

[Erik Neuenschwander]

We don't have the kind of destinations around the Internet that do that kind of web tracking. Of course, with our online store, for example, we have a direct first-party relationship with users who visit our sites.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

There's probably a reasonable expectation that when I visit the Apple site, I know that Apple's going to want to communicate with me afterwards, but if I'm visiting other non-related sites around the Internet, Apple wouldn't be tracking me.

[Erik Neuenschwander]

We're not, and in fact our intelligent tracking prevention is on by default in our Safari web browser, so even if Apple were to attempt that, intelligent tracking prevention would seek to prevent it.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Microsoft and Amazon, are you similar to Apple, or do you engage in web tracking on a wide variety of websites across the Internet?

[Mark Ryland]

We are involved in the web ecosystem, with the ability to understand where people have come from and where they're going from our site.

Again, our primary business model is selling products to customers, so that's not the way we monetize our business.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Was that a yes to web tracking, fairly broadly?

[Mark Ryland]

We participate in the advertising ecosystem, so yes.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I think that's a yes.

Microsoft, would you comment?

[John Weigelt]

We have our properties, as do the other communities. We have the Microsoft store and the MSN properties, so we are able to determine where our customers are coming from.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

The reason I ask is that we had an individual yesterday talking about how consent in some cases isn't good enough, and in some cases, I understand that. I'm a reasonably busy person, so I can't be expected to read every agreement about terms and conditions; I can't be expected to read all of them. If secondary consents are in every single app I use and I have to agree to 10 different consents, am I really going to be able to protect my own personal information? I don't think we should expect that of consumers, which is why we have consumer protection law and implied warranties in other contexts.

McNamee yesterday suggested that some things should strictly be off the table. I put it to Google that maybe Google shouldn't be able to read my emails and target me based on ads—that should be off the table. Do you think, Apple, that certain things should just be off the table?

[Erik Neuenschwander]

Yes, when we.... Our iCloud service is a place where users can store their photos or documents with Apple, and we are not mining that content to build profiles about our users. We consider it the user's data. We're storing it on our service, but it remains the user's data.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Similarly, Microsoft and Amazon: Do you think certain data collection should simply be off the table completely?

[John Weigelt]

One of the things we feel strongly about is users having visibility into what data they have shared with particular organizations. We've worked very closely—I have personally worked very closely—with information privacy commissioners across Canada to talk about the consent environment and what consent means. As we rolled out tools like Cortana, for example, we worked with the federal Privacy Commissioner's office to understand which of the 12 stages of consent for consumers were particularly important.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

But I'm suggesting that beyond consent, certain things be off the table. For example, my personal pictures on my phone—should those be able to be scanned, and then I get targeted ads?

[John Weigelt]

To be clear, we don't scan that information—

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Well, I know you don't—

[John Weigelt]

—however, we do provide—

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

—but should certain things be off the table? That is my point.

[John Weigelt]

—visibility to customers so that they understand where their data is being used and give them full control.

Our privacy dashboard, for example, allows you to see what data is resident within the Microsoft environment and then you're able to control that and be able to manage that in a better fashion. It's all about having that user interaction so that they understand the value proposition of being able to share those things.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Amazon, should certain things just be off the table?

[Mark Ryland]

I don't think you can say, a priori, that certain things are always inappropriate, because again, the customer experience is key, and if people want to have a better customer experience based on data that they share.... Consent, obviously, and control are critical.

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Let's take the case of kids under the age of 18, for example. Maybe we should not be able to collect information about kids under the age of 18, or under 16, or under 13.

Kids, let's say. Should that be off the table?

[Mark Ryland]

We're going to comply with all of the laws of the countries where we operate, if that is—

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

Are you saying you don't have a view on an ethical basis with respect to collecting information from kids?

[Mark Ryland]

We certainly have a view that parents should be in charge of children's online experience, and we give parents the full control in our systems for that experience.