Evidence of meeting #31 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lobbyists.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
Do you think that the existing legislation ought to be amended to be brought into line with the Prime Minister's statement on ethics and open government?
12:30 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I think there are certainly many aspects of what's in those guidelines that could fit quite nicely in this act. I note that those guidelines came about, I think, as a result of my Raitt inquiry. That's why I say the reports on some of these investigations are very important, even if I don't find an infraction of the act. In that, I observed that there was an awful lot that could be regulated around the fundraising activities, although under the terms of the act there was not a contravention because she had not done something.
It's as a result of that, I believe, that the guidelines were first instituted. The current Prime Minister has carried forward those very same guidelines.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
Pat Kelly Conservative Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB
He said in his guidelines that mere technical compliance is not good enough, and that there has to be a higher standard than simply that.
12:30 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I'm not going to comment on the Prime Minister's behaviour.
I make the comment that there are a lot of worthwhile rules or suggestions in those guidelines.
12:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins
Thank you very much, Mr. Kelly. Your time is up. We now move to Mr. Boulerice, please.
You have seven minutes.
12:30 p.m.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Commissioner Dawson, for being here with us today. You will not be surprised that I have a few questions that are very much in keeping with the statements by my colleague, Mr. Kelly.
In the past year, we have seen that certain bad habits have resurfaced in the Liberal Party. I would like to ask you about this, specifically as regards special access to certain ministers at Liberal Party fundraising activities. This has happened a number of times. The Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada was one of the first to hold such an activity.
Moreover, on October 13, 2016, Mr. Morneau, the Minister of Finance, attended an event in Halifax organized by the Laurier Club. The tickets were $1,500 each. There were just 15 or so people in attendance, some of them from the Halifax Port Authority, which falls under federal jurisdiction. Other attendees included major real estate developers in Nova Scotia. They would certainly have an interest in discussing infrastructure, for instance, with the Finance minister, who will soon be delivering an economic update.
Would you consider this an apparent conflict of interest?
12:30 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Not quite.
It is not a conflict of interest. However, we are wondering about what is happening, and it is of course a concern.
In fact, it is not just a question of conflict of interest. The issue is broader than that. The idea is to find out what kinds of political activities are acceptable. That is why I’m saying that it would be useful to ask whether establishing a clear code for political activities would be appropriate.
12:30 p.m.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
It would be specifically for ministers or parliamentary secretaries.
12:30 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Possibly.
12:30 p.m.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
There are some interesting rules in the government document entitled Open and Accountable Government. It deals with the appearance of conflict of interest and the fact that you cannot peddle access to a minister.
You said that the document exists, but you have no authority over it and it does not fall under your responsibility. It’s actually a guide with empty promises. As far as you’re concerned, there are no legal consequences unless we include relevant and interesting rules that would be in the Conflict of Interest Act.
Should a serious government include those rules in the act? The government is very proud of those rules and uses them to defend itself, but it does not include them in the act. Basically, it is beyond the scope of your responsibilities.
Should the government include those rules in the act? In that way, you could at least address them.
12:30 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
It is up to everyone to decide and make comments on that.
The implementation of the Prime Minister’s guidelines is not part of my mandate. However, I have a lot of opportunities to comment in my investigation reports when the document is not successful, under the Conflict of Interest Act, and to indicate that there are other things to consider.
12:30 p.m.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
For now, the Liberal government has not responded to your recommendations to change the act to more effectively monitor the strategies that allow people to pay for access to a minister.
Do you not find it a bit frustrating in the long run to see that the government never follows up on your annual recommendations and to have to reiterate them?
12:35 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes, but I keep doing it every year.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Thank you for your persistence. I would just like the government to be more receptive.
On October 20, following Mr. Morneau's fundraiser in Halifax, I wrote you a letter asking that there be an investigation into that event. You answered that section 16 of the current act does not allow for an investigation, particularly because of the wording according to which the minister must personally make a request to that effect. Right now, this is on the Liberal Party's website, which is often not accessible to the general public.
How should we change section 16 to avoid this trap whereby, when it is not the minister himself who makes that request, it is beyond your control?
12:35 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
We must not focus solely on section 16. Instead, we must ask which other provisions will be included in the Conflict of Interest Act.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Right now, is section 16 appropriate or should it be amended with other parts of the act?
12:35 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
I don't know. I don't really understand your question.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Are you satisfied with the way section 16 is written right now? It seems to me that it's extremely limiting. If it's not the minister himself making the request, it's beyond your control.
12:35 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
The section is very unique. It doesn't have a broad scope. That's what I was saying.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
In addition to section 16 whose scope we could extend, what other reforms of the act would be needed to be able to monitor the strategies that allow people to pay for access to a minister?
12:35 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
It's hard to say. This is a complex issue because it is part of an entire political system. It must be considered in the context of the rules of the political system.
I know a party has to do fundraising. It's not my job to create the rules for it. It's the politicians' job. It is difficult for a party to make changes unless it is in power. I have no idea what the other parties did in the past when they were in power. I don't know whether the same thing happened. However—
12:35 p.m.
NDP
12:35 p.m.
Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner
Yes.
12:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins
Thank you very much, Mr. Boulerice.
We will now go to our last questioner in the order, colleagues, in the seven-minute round.
Mr. Lightbound, go ahead please.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
Joël Lightbound Liberal Louis-Hébert, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
First, I want to thank Ms. Dawson for being with us again today. Thank you for the work you have done over the past few years.
In 2014, the committee studied the Conflict of Interest Act. You then made 70 recommendations and two were adopted.