Information & Ethics Committee on Oct. 27th, 2016

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

In your remarks, you said that your experience has been that public office holders and MPs want to comply with the act and the code. In particular, you stated:

[...] I have found that the Act and the Members' Code work well overall. This does not mean that there is no room for improvement.

Please tell us about your specific concerns in this regard.

[Mary Dawson]

I have prepared a fairly long list of outstanding issues, and partisan political activities are a problem that we have noted recently. A number of changes in this regard should be made. There is also the issue of gifts. After nine years, the rules surrounding gifts are still not well understood. These are two problems that I believe will persist for quite a long time.

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

What specific changes would you recommend?

[Mary Dawson]

On these two issues?

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Yes.

[Mary Dawson]

As I recently pointed out publicly, some of the ideas in the Prime Minister's document can be included in the act.

Moreover, subsection 15(4) of the act states:

(4) Nothing in this section prohibits or restricts the political activities of a reporting public office holder.

We have to remember that we have this regulation simultaneously so we have to find a balance.

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

You talked about the commissioners' network and said that you share a great deal of information in this group. Through this network, have you identified any best practices that could improve the code in the long term?

[Mary Dawson]

For the most part, I think we quite agree on what the legislation should contain. The federal system is one of the most advanced, but the systems of some provinces, such as British Columbia, Ontario and possibly other provinces, are quite good. However, our rules are pretty much the same for the most part.

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

So there are no best practices elsewhere that could benefit us.

In addition to the provinces, do you have discussions with government officials from other countries about an approach that perhaps we could adopt?

[Mary Dawson]

I cannot think of any. There are probably little things here and there, but many officials from other countries come to see me to discuss our system. I think it is one of the best.

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

That's great.

How much time do I still have, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Blaine Calkins]

You have another minute, sir.

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Okay. Thank you.

Ms. Dawson, I have one last question for you.

You have completed your mandate and you have held this position for nine years. From your experience and your expertise, what are the biggest challenges we will be facing in the future?

[Mary Dawson]

I think it is very important to be as transparent as possible. I do not see big changes on the horizon because I think the system works well. I myself am in favour of telling the public this as much as possible, but with some limitations. That’s the approach I prefer.

[Rémi Massé, Liberal, Avignon—La Mitis—Matane—Matapédia, QC]

Thank you.

Thank you for answering my questions in French. You speak the language very well.

[Mary Dawson]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Blaine Calkins]

Thank you very much.

We'll move to Mr. Kelly, please, for seven minutes.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair

Thank you, Ms. Dawson, for appearing again with us.

We've heard a lot of talk this week, both in the media and in the House, about fundraisers, in which cabinet ministers hold exclusive meetings, in some cases with lobbyists and certainly with donors. There appears to be a breach of the Prime Minister's code of ethics, specifically the provisions contained in annex B.

When you met with us back in February, I think it was, or the second meeting that we had, we were talking about where we find improper behaviour and how we determine this. I recall that you talked about seeking authority or referring to authorities beyond just simply your act and that you looked at other rules that exist out there. I saw your appearance on Power Play.You had mentioned then that you were not responsible for the Prime Minister's code of ethics and that you do not regulate conduct under that piece. Why not?

You had said at an earlier meeting that you would look at other rules, other guidelines beyond simply the Conflict of Interest Act. I'd like your comment on that, if you can.

[Mary Dawson]

I don't have the mandate to enforce that particular document. However, in a number of my reports following investigations, I have made reference to the various rules and noted that they might be relevant. I've also suggested that there are certain portions of those guidelines that might find their way into my act, if it was desired.

I'm not the authority who reacts to those guidelines. I'm not suggesting there shouldn't be some guidelines that the Prime Minister has that don't necessarily go into my act. A number of those particular rules would address some of the issues that are raised, although I have to say as well, none of them are black and white. They all require a good understanding of the facts that are involved. There are other sections in my act that could be implicated, particularly after the fact, but it all depends on the circumstances and the facts surrounding each individual case.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Are you going to open a file on some of the allegations that have been raised about conflicts of interest if there are parts of your act that this could fall under?

[Mary Dawson]

There could be one or two that I might look into if I had other information that indicated that there was a possible problem. However, I'm not going to open a file on every single one of them if there's not some indication of how they would fit under my act.

If a member comes with a complaint, I'm required to take a serious look at that and decide whether there are grounds. If there aren't grounds, sometimes I go on to make inquiries directly to the person involved to get some more information to see whether there is a problem. I also follow up on any complaints, suggestions, or requests that come in from the general public, and I watch the media reports. I don't ignore these things, but there's no point in commencing an investigation if there don't seem to be grounds under the act or the code.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Given that even the mere appearance of a conflict is problematic, according to the Prime Minister's statement on ethics and open government, would you suggest that Canadians would think that a small handful of people, who appear to be hand-selected, appearing for an intimate dinner or an intimate meeting at $1,500 a pop would at least create the appearance of a conflict of interest?

[Mary Dawson]

I'm not surprised that questions are being raised about it. I can read you the section in my act, and it's extremely circumscribed. I don't know if you want to hear it, but it's there in section 16. There's not much to it.

Do you want to hear it? Okay. “No public office holder shall personally solicit funds from any person or organization if it would place the public office holder in a conflict of interest.”

It is important that they can't personally solicit funds. Conflict of interest is defined only as being involved with a private interest. That's why I often talked about how political activities are not covered. There's no code to cover political activities, as such. My act is limited in large measure to private interests. When you look at the configuration of the act, it really means financial-type, directorships, financial, and that sort of thing.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Directorships, like a port authority appointment.

How am I for time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Blaine Calkins]

You have a minute and a half left.