Information & Ethics Committee on March 22nd, 2018

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

Sure. Yes, I'm sure that can....

Go ahead.

[Anne Minh-Thu Quach, NDP, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

Forgive me, but would it be possible to get the presentations now? As a matter of principle, we are supposed to receive all briefs in both official languages.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

Do you mean the presentation here?

[Anne Minh-Thu Quach, NDP, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

That's usually how it works for all presentations in all committees.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

We just moved a motion to unanimously accept the presentation in English only, and we all voted for that.

[Anne Minh-Thu Quach, NDP, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

I was under the impression that the presentation would be given in English, but that we would have both versions in writing. We aren't getting the written versions until later, however. As a matter of principle, I generally object to that. Sorry, but this is a bilingual institution.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

As far as I know, I don't see that it's a bilingual issue. It's already been unanimously accepted that it would be in English only. This committee just accepted that unanimously. I'm not sure what the issue is there.

Other than seeing the presentation physically in front of you, you're going to see it on the screen, directly in front of you, as it's presented.

Go ahead, Mr. Picard.

[Michel Picard, Liberal, Montarville, QC]

I'd like to make two points.

I certainly support the member for defending the French language and its place. That said, we need to consider two things. First of all, we have to take into account the circumstances and show some flexibility. I think the situation today is rare. Second of all, unanimous consent was obtained, as per procedure. I don't think there's reason for debate.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

Okay. The documents will be translated.

Liia Hänni and Raul Rikk, you may present. Please proceed.

Our technical folks have just said that your device is muted right now. Can you un-mute your device, please?

[Nathaniel Erskine-Smith, Liberal, Beaches—East York, ON]

I don't know if this bodes well for a digital government study.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

I think we have sound now.

Please proceed with your presentation.

[Liia Hänni, Senior Expert, e-Governance Academy]

Okay.

First, this is a great forum for us to have this virtual meeting with your committee. My name is Liia Hänni. I am a Senior Expert on e-democracy and open governance, and it is a real pleasure to share with you some views on how privacy can be protected in e-government systems. I understand that this is your main concern in Canada, to develop safe e-government systems in your country.

You may know that in Estonia we have succeeded in developing an e-government system that is very much used by Estonian citizens. I think we should first explain to you the foundations of a secure e-government in Estonia. I had the opportunity to present yesterday to a Canadian delegation from your Treasury Board Secretariat, so I have an understanding now of the kinds of issues you face in Canada.

In Estonia, the e-government—

[Anne Minh-Thu Quach, NDP, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

The translation isn't coming through.

[Liia Hänni]

Can you hear me?

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

I'm sorry; I'll have to ask you to pause for a second.

Go ahead, Madam Quach.

[Anne Minh-Thu Quach, NDP, Salaberry—Suroît, QC]

The translation isn't coming through. I'm not sure whether it's working for everyone else, but I'm not hearing the translation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

I'm sorry, folks. Let's suspend for two minutes.

Ms. Hänni, just hold on for two minutes while we get this sorted out. You have my apologies.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

I'll call the meeting back to order. The translators weren't translating because there was an echo in the translation device.

Again, my apologies to Liia and Raul. Please proceed. You should be good to go.

[Raul Rikk, Programme Director, National Cyber Security, e-Governance Academy]

Good morning from my side as well.

My name is Raul Rikk. I work at the e-Governance Academy as the Director of the National Cybersecurity Program.

My background is from the security sector in Estonia. I was years ago responsible for establishing the NATO Cooperative Cyber Defence Centre of Excellence in Tallinn. I have worked in the cybersecurity and data protection area for 15 years.

Thank you for inviting us to present the Estonian model for data protection for a digital society, as well as for cybersecurity. Because of the video conference, we decided not to go through the whole presentation. We'll just use one slide that combines all the different aspects that we will probably discuss today. This slide points out the main principles in the data protection and cybersecurity area and describes the general architecture of how interoperability and security are ensured in Estonia in the digital space.

I believe that we could actually go straight to the questions. It is probably better to proceed this way.

[The Chair, Conservative, Bob Zimmer]

We will proceed, then. Thank you for that.

Just to let the committee know, there is about a three-second delay for them to hear us, even though there doesn't appear to be.

We'll start off with Ms. Vandenbeld for seven minutes.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

First, I'd like to give my greetings to Liia, whom I've worked with in the past. I'm quite an admirer of your work.

Thank you very much to both of you for being here in front of the committee this morning.

I'd like to ask Liia how this was initiated in Estonia. We know that Estonia is one of the countries that is leading the world when it comes to e-governance. Where was the inception of the idea? What was the foundation? Where did you begin in order to get to this point?

[Liia Hänni]

Thank you.

Of course, it's a long story because Estonia celebrated 100 years, and we've now had our independence again for 27 years.

We had this opportunity to start anew, starting from a new constitution. Immediately we had this question in front of us of how we can meet all the requirements of democracy and pick up on what the state.... It was decided that we should use the power of technology.

This was an important decision. Also, we could see that policy matters. If you have a strategic vision of your country and your society, you can do a lot. Several of these kinds of strategic principles really have been new, but it was for the well-being of all members of society. Nobody was left behind when we developed e-government and an information society.

Also, our conviction was that the e-governance structure and model in Estonia should be a platform for all society, not only for the government itself. It's a benefit we receive from e-governance. The system should be for all citizens of Estonia. Based on these principles, we have this model, which is presented on a slide by Raul.

This Estonian model has three important components. First, a strong digital identity is given to us by our government. Our vision is that it is a role of government not only to deliver paper passports but also digital certificates and digital identification tools for citizens. This is one building block of Estonia's e-governance system.

The second component is digital data resources. We have hundreds of databases that will take digital data, but it is not enough to have good electronic services for citizens. It amounts to interoperability. It means that all these numerous datasets need to form one uniform system. This has been realized in Estonia through a system we call X-Road, which allows us to connect all datasets into one system. This is the basic architecture of Estonian e-government.

Third, e-government is not separate datasets; it's a system that needs to have well-established architecture. Many view these as basic components of the e-government model in Estonia. A citizen's digital data and interoperability are realized by the X-Road system.

[Anita Vandenbeld, Liberal, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I notice you are referring to the direct link between democracy and e-governance or digital governance, which I think is very compelling.

I know your institute has worked with 90 countries around the world. Can you tell us a little about some of the challenges faced by different countries and some of the lessons, particularly as we look at the fact that Estonia is a very small country? Canada, of course, is very large and very spread out. Do you see differences in the application of the lessons from Estonia when you go around the world into different countries?

[Liia Hänni]

I think that the size of the country is not as important as it seems at first glance. The challenges we have met are always the same. All governments want to have a good e-government system and provide good electronic services to their citizens, but to do this there are certain preconditions. I listed three of these preconditions. Usually what is missing in different countries is this understanding that e-government should not consist of separate information systems and that these systems need to work together.

This is mainly about interoperability, which is not only a technical issue but an organizational issue first. Different state agency organizations should be able to work together to share data and to put together these electronic services we have in Estonia.