Information & Ethics Committee on March 9th, 2020

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I am trying to sort this out. There are four commissioners and I see that a lot of work is being done collaboratively. Two things that came up were funding and the distribution of work between commissioners.

It would be interesting to know what your relationship is with the other commissioners, Ms. Bélanger. We are here to help you restructure your office. Perhaps one approach would be to be more collaborative, especially if you are understaffed. The issues of access to information, the registry of lobbyists and privacy are actually closely linked.

What can we do to help you? Are there opportunities for collaboration?

[Nancy Bélanger]

Certainly our mandates are quite distinct. Is there a need for more collaboration? Perhaps. We should think about that. I also know that, in the provinces, some of the offices are amalgamated. To find out whether or not this is a positive thing, I suggest that the committee invite some of the commissioners to come and see whether there are benefits for them.

Personally, I will take any opportunity to cooperate or perform certain tasks with them, because we are such a small organization. However, we all have an obligation to keep information confidential. So that limits the information that we can share.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Do I have any more time, Madam Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rachael Thomas]

You have 30 seconds.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you kindly, Ms. Bélanger.

Indeed, we are going to have to work together and sort all of this out. When it comes to confidentiality, working together does not make it harder to respect people's privacy. On the contrary, there may be ways to do things while also protecting personal information.

[Nancy Bélanger]

Thank you, Ms. Gaudreau.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rachael Thomas]

Mr. Kurek, go ahead for five minutes.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much, Commissioner, for coming. I hope to get a few questions in, so I'll ask you to keep your responses fairly short. As a new member—and I know there are a number of new members around this table—I'm wondering if there are two or three quick reference points that you in your role could share with MPs in this committee, ways that we can make sure we are doing our jobs most effectively to ensure that you can do your job most effectively.

[Nancy Bélanger]

Quick reference points—I don't think so. I appreciate these invitations. I feel as though we work quite in isolation, so having the opportunity to share is absolutely welcome. I need to know that you know what I'm doing, that I am working hard, that my team is working extremely hard, and I do not want to make it look as though we're in an ivory tower or something and not doing anything. As often as you want to invite me and to hear from me, it will be my pleasure to come.

Otherwise, I have a very discreet and very focused mandate. I think maybe in the future we will have an opportunity to work together if there's ever a legislative review, a little bit more closely, but otherwise, I think that having open discussion and communication is the best.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I appreciate that. Certainly that answers my question. Thank you very much for that.

I reviewed your mandate on your website and some of the information you sent. I'd like to read into the record a quote from your website that I think highlights the importance here:

The purpose of the [Lobbying] Act is to ensure transparency and accountability in the lobbying of public office holders in order to increase the public's confidence in the integrity of government decision-making.

I think that is a fairly accurate description of your overall mandate, kind of succinct into one statement.

I would just ask for any comments you might have on your role as commissioner in ensuring that Canadians can trust the institutions of Parliament and trust that their government is not subject to undue influence and that sort of thing. I'm not sure if you were here for part of the debate before, but this is something that's top of mind. I certainly heard a tremendous amount during the last election, and I continue to hear a lot from constituents, about how we need to have confidence in our democratic and governmental institutions.

[Nancy Bélanger]

I'm a great believer in access to information and transparency. I was in the access world before. I continue to promote transparency in everything I do, as much as I can. I reach out to lobbyists a lot. I am watching everything that goes on. I said earlier that likely 90% of the work I do is self-initiated. All I can do is try to continue to instill the integrity of how lobbyists do their work.

Quite frankly, there are 6,000 lobbyists who are registered. Under the code on ethical conduct, I am not receiving many complaints. I am not really observing much. There is a lot going on, for sure, but at least Canadians know about it if they look at our registry. How do I reach out to all Canadians to make sure they know about my registry? Well, it's little baby steps. I am trying to meet with anybody who wants to meet with us. I am in the universities. We try to use social media. All we can do is use word of mouth, and reach out to you, and hopefully people will understand the role of the registry and the lobbying regime overall, at some point. Really, it helps to contribute to the integrity of decision-making.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

I appreciate that.

Chair, how much time do I have left?

[The Chair, Conservative, Rachael Thomas]

You have 30 seconds.

[Damien Kurek, Conservative, Battle River—Crowfoot, AB]

Okay. Perfect.

I would leave you with this final comment. You know, “lobbying” is often known as a dirty word. It's so important that this registry and the investigations you undertake help to ensure that Canadians can ultimately trust government. We talk a lot about trust, because often it's the headlines and whatnot that speak to when trust is shaken or broken. Specifically in regard to your mandate as the lobbying commissioner, thank you for the good work you do and for your role in helping to ensure that Canadians can ultimately trust our public institutions.

Thank you very much for appearing before us today.

[Nancy Bélanger]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rachael Thomas]

Ms. Shanahan, you have five minutes.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

I'd like to give my time to Greg Fergus.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you very much, Mrs. Shanahan.

Thank you, Madam Chair and Madam Commissioner.

It is a pleasure to have this second opportunity to speak with you. I have to tell you that I really enjoyed our first meeting.

I do not know whether all my colleagues know this, but before I became a member of Parliament, I was a staff lobbyist for the Association of Universities and Colleges of Canada. On my team, I was the one responsible for lobbying members of Parliament during the 41st Parliament. We talked about this before. On my team, I had insisted, even with the volunteers who came from across Canada to advance the interests of the universities, that we register even though it was not required. I thought it was always better to give as much information as possible to your predecessor, rather than not give enough.

However, I did notice that it was sometimes a bit complicated to use the registry, especially for volunteers who do not lobby regularly. Indeed, less than 5% of their work is devoted to lobbying. I am not even talking about the 20% threshold.

Is there a way to simplify registration so that Canadians can get a realistic update on the status of lobbyists who speak to politicians or senior officials?

[Nancy Bélanger]

There are a number of ways to simplify the process, especially for people who need to sign up for the registry. Currently, the criteria vary based on whether a business or an organization is involved. I believe the criteria should always be the same. So, one of my recommendations is to harmonize the criteria.

There used to be two steps in the registration process. People had to sign a contract and then send it in. We have eliminated those steps. Over the past year, we have streamlined the registration process, and it is now possible to go directly into the system and work with a staff member, who does the registration. We have transferred all data to the Webforce platform so that the registry can be accessed by telephone. Previously, people who had to register could only do so by accessing the system from their office. Now they will be able to do it from their cell phone.

We are very aware of the situation and we are trying to improve the process. One thing we have done is conduct a customer service survey. It showed us that, once people know how the process works, it is easy, but they still have to get there. We are taking small steps, but we are always listening and we are getting things done.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

That's great. Thank you very much.

My second question concerns a point you raised during your presentation. You would like people to also include communications that take place in public places, while waiting for the bus or in a lineup at an airport, for instance.

I for one remember my old life before I jumped into politics. I have been in the region for 32 years. I am one of the only members of Parliament who has been in Ottawa that long. Over the decades here, I have met many lobbyists. Sometimes I meet them somewhere and the conversation starts and I do not know whether I started it or they started it. In some cases, the conversation is very detailed, and in other cases it is not. When our exchanges are detailed, I remind them that they have to use the registry.

Again, I'm wondering whether we are making things more complicated. Are we creating a huge workload for you and your team?

[Nancy Bélanger]

If you are creating a heavy workload, something is going on, and it should be registered. If it happens a lot and is not being registered, there is a problem.

You are right about the complexity of the process, and that is why we want to simplify things. The question of who started the conversation should not be relevant. Conversations about the weather should not be logged in the registry. However, if the person is asking for support for a $10,000 or $15,000 request, that is lobbying. If we had to determine whether the meeting in a lineup was arranged in advance or who started the conversation, that would make it complex. As soon as a lobbyist asks for something, it should be recorded in the registry, period. I hope that simplifies things.

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Pardon me, I have another question.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rachael Thomas]

That is your time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rachael Thomas]

Madame Bélanger, thank you so much for your time and being willing to answer our questions and engage in conversation with us today.

[Nancy Bélanger]

Thank you.