Evidence of meeting #12 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was lobbying.
A video is available from Parliament.
2:50 p.m.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Okay.
Therefore, what is stated in this recommendation could potentially become law.
Do you agree with me in saying that, to show our responsibility and lead by example, we must follow that recommendation?
2:50 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Your responsibility is currently to answer me and confirm the information in the registry. To meet that obligation, you have to take note of the people you have met with and the topics discussed.
In answer to one of my questions on this, if someone tells me they have no idea, do not remember that meeting and don't know who was there, I must rely on the word of the lobbyist who wrote down the actual information. Lobbyists do this within 15 days following the meeting scheduled for the month. They very often do so when they come out of a meeting.
If I ask you, you must confirm whether it is true or not. That is why my recommendation is to take good notes.
2:50 p.m.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
Duly noted.
There are many grey areas in your work. How can you show that is being done with transparency and impartiality? Can any mechanisms attest to your neutrality?
2:50 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I have been a public servant my entire life, and I am a very neutral individual. I have no political affiliation and I have never had any.
What is more, I have a great deal of integrity and I really take to heart enforcing the act as it is written. My work is very important to me, and I work hard. I have a team of 28 employees, who are also very neutral. I evaluate the evidence as it appears before me, based on the criteria set out in the act. I am also a legal expert, as I am a lawyer by profession. I promise you....
2:50 p.m.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
I lost time because of the interruption earlier. Can I ask my question? It will only take 20 seconds?
2:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Sweet
No, I gave you extra time. I stopped my timer and gave you extra time.
2:50 p.m.
Bloc
Marie-Hélène Gaudreau Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC
I will be brief.
Ms. Bélanger, what would be the potential penalties if someone violated the act, for example, by failing to register or to produce a report? What reference mechanism would make it possible to check that?
2:50 p.m.
Conservative
2:50 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
Right now it's a referral to the RCMP, and there is really nothing else. Otherwise, if it's a breach of the code, it's a report to Parliament. I have no spectrum of sanctions, which is why that will be one of my recommendations.
I apologize for answering in English. I am sorry about that.
2:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Sweet
There is translation. Don't worry.
Mr. Angus can go ahead for two and half minutes, please.
2:55 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'm very interested, Madame Bélanger. You were talking about obligations and when you need to register and when you don't. I meet with all kinds of charities, local and national. You said if a group is trying to develop a program, is meeting with ministers or meeting with ministers' staff about developing a program, it has to register. Is that correct?
2:55 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
It has to register if it meets the 20% threshold, yes.
2:55 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Right. In the case of the Kielburger group, the group was trying to develop two programs. One was the entrepreneurship program with Minister Bill Morneau, which was $12 million, and the Canada student services grant, eventually for $900 million. That's a lot of money.
We talked about this issue. They classified themselves as volunteers, which I think is kind of difficult to figure out, given their structure, but you said—and I found it really interesting—that if someone is getting paid by somebody, it may meet the threshold. That's interesting.
I would ask you if you've looked at the contracts that were signed between the Government of Canada and the holding company that was set up, because the Kielburgers in testimony said, again and again, that 100% of the money was going for young people. They were not taking a dime. They made that very clear, but the contract showed easily a 15% administration fee for their organization. They have many staff, and all their organizations are intertwined, but also the Government of Canada was going to pay $560,000 in rent. That's half a million dollars. We know that the Kielburgers had multiple real estate holdings in the City of Toronto that they were trying to hold on to.
Hypothetically, if people are getting paid for their real estate, if they're getting paid for their staff in one of their organizations, if $50-plus million is being funnelled through an organization, somebody's getting paid. Is it possible that this could meet the threshold for someone getting paid and needing to register?
2:55 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
The requirement to register is that you're paid by somebody to lobby about something so that your company will benefit. If that happened—
2:55 p.m.
NDP
Charlie Angus NDP Timmins—James Bay, ON
Yes. I was just thinking about the Kielburgers specifically here—
2:55 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
I do not want to talk about specific cases. I can't. I really can't.
2:55 p.m.
Commissioner of Lobbying, Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying
What I will tell you is that our investigations, our preliminary assessments and everything we do, we do extremely thoroughly.
2:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Sweet
Thank you very much, Madame Bélanger and Mr. Angus.
Mr. Warkentin, we only have three minutes left in our meeting, so you have three minutes.
2:55 p.m.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Grande Prairie—Mackenzie, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Commissioner. I'll keep this tight.
I do have a question, and it is this: What conditions could lead you to abandon an investigation midway? Is there anything that could happen outside of your control that would lead you to discontinue an investigation?